D&D 5E Using the "players roll all the dice" variant in 5E?

doctorhook · Jun 13, 2014

(I realize the full ruleset for 5E won't be available for another few weeks, but I was hoping to hear from those who've put the playtest and demo rules through their paces.)

In 3.5E and 4E, I've had success with the "players roll all the dice" variant*. I find that this rule significantly increases player engagement, so I'd like to use it in my 5E game. Can anyone foresee any unique pitfalls to using this variant in 5E? Thanks for your input, gang.

*For those unfamiliar, the main difference with this rule is that players make a d20 "defense roll" against an NPC's static "attack class" to resolve an attack. Basically, PCs always use static numbers and players always roll a d20 to resolve contests. The results are statistically very similar--if not identical to--those of the base game.

GX.Sigma · Jun 13, 2014

I don't think there are any problems unique to 5e. I think this math works:

PCs:
Instead of using your Save DC, you make magic rolls against the target's save scores. Your modifier for a magic roll is your Save DC - 12.
Instead of using your AC, you make defense rolls against the target's attack score. Your modifier for a dodge roll is your AC - 12.

NPCs:
Instead of making saving throws, you have save scores. Each save score is 10 + ability modifier + saving throw bonus (if any).
Instead of making attack rolls, you have an attack score. Your attack score is 10 + attack modifier.

Perception is a problem, but I suppose that's a problem with any players-always-roll system.

FitzTheRuke · Jun 13, 2014

doctorhook said:
(I realize the full ruleset for 5E won't be available for another few weeks, but I was hoping to hear from those who've put the playtest and demo rules through their paces.)

In 3.5E and 4E, I've had success with the "players roll all the dice" variant*. I find that this rule significantly increases player engagement, so I'd like to use it in my 5E game. Can anyone foresee any unique pitfalls to using this variant in 5E? Thanks for your input, gang.
.

I can't imagine it would be any harder than it normally is. Probably a bit quicker.

I've tried it a few times. I like SOME aspects of it (players feel like they are actively defending themselves) but I've never had a group I felt was very apt at it, so it's usually shot down when we vote on how it went overall.

Warbringer · Jun 13, 2014

FitzTheRuke said:
I can't imagine it would be any harder than it normally is. Probably a bit quicker.

I've tried it a few times. I like SOME aspects of it (players feel like they are actively defending themselves) but I've never had a group I felt was very apt at it, so it's usually shot down when we vote on how it went overall.

Yes

Been doing it for years.

Will also use the following ... Take advantage on an offense roll in exchange for disadvantage on a dens ive roll. You cannot take this option if you already have advantage or disadvantage.

doctorhook · Jul 20, 2014

Just wondering, now that we've got 5B in front of us, has any of this changed?

Correct me if any of this is wrong:

PCs:
Attack bonus = proficiency bonus + ability modifier; (SAME AS NORMAL)
Defense bonus = AC - 12;
Spell attack bonus = proficiency bonus + ability modifier; (SAME AS NORMAL)
Spell save bonus = save DC - 12;

NPCs and monsters:
Attack score = 10 + attack bonus;
Defense score = AC; (SAME AS NORMAL)
Spell attack score = 10 + spell attack bonus;
Spell save score = save DC; (SAME AS NORMAL)

Other notes:
NPC vs NPC combat uses standard rules instead of the above;
Ties always go to whoever is rolling the d20;
In the case of a tie between two characters rolling against each other, continue rolling until it the result is no longer a tie.

camilaacolide · Jul 20, 2014

Actually, it's not quite right.
I think it's more consistent this way:
(Only the rolls in red need to be changed, the others are same as normal)

PC Attacking:

Attack: D20 + attack ability modifier + weapon proficiency bonus.
Attack DC: NPC armor class.

Spell Attack: D20 + spell ability modifier + proficiency bonus.
Spell Attack DC: NPC armor class.

Spell Effect: D20 + spell ability modifier + proficiency bonus.
Spell Effect DC: 14 + NPC saving throw bonus.
* Replaces DM rolling NPC saving throw.

PC Defending:

Defense: D20 + dexterity modifier + armor/shield bonus.
Defense DC: 12 + NPC attack bonus.
* Replaces DM rolling NPC attack roll.

Spell Defense: D20 + saving throw ability modifier + saving throw proficiency bonus.
Spell Defense DC: NPC spell save DC.

doctorhook · Jul 21, 2014

camilaacolide said:
Actually, it's not quite right.
I think it's more consistent this way:
(Only the rolls in red need to be changed, the others are same as normal)

PC Attacking:

Attack: D20 + attack ability modifier + weapon proficiency bonus.
Attack DC: NPC armor class.

Spell Attack: D20 + spell ability modifier + proficiency bonus.
Spell Attack DC: NPC armor class.

Spell Effect: D20 + spell ability modifier + proficiency bonus.
Spell Effect DC: 14 + NPC saving throw bonus.
* Replaces DM rolling NPC saving throw.

PC Defending:

Defense: D20 + dexterity modifier + armor/shield bonus.
Defense DC: 12 + NPC attack bonus.
* Replaces DM rolling NPC attack roll.

Spell Defense: D20 + saving throw ability modifier + saving throw proficiency bonus.
Spell Defense DC: NPC spell save DC.

So using the 5E Starter Set Goblin as a guide, the converted stat block would look like:

GOBLIN
Small humanoid (goblinoid), neutral evil
-----
Armor Class 15 (leather armor, shield)
Hit Points 7 (2d6)
Speed 30 ft.
-----
STR 8 (-1), save score 13;
DEX 14 (+2), save score 16;
CON 10 (+0), save score 14;
INT 10 (+0), save score 14;
WIS 8 (-1), save score 13;
CHA 8 (-1), save score 13;
-----
Skills Stealth score 16 (+6);
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 9
Languages Common, Goblin
Challenge 1/4 (50 XP)
-----
Nimble Escape. The goblin can take the Disengage or Hide action as a bonus action on each of its turns.
-----
ACTIONS
Scimitar. Melee Weapon Attack: attack score 16 (+4 to hit), reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) slashing damage.

Shortbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: attack score 16 (+4 to hit), range 80 ft./320 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) piercing damage.

In blue I highlighted his skills because I wasn't sure. I used 10 as the base. What should the base number for skills be?

camilaacolide · Jul 21, 2014

When switching the dice rolls from the NPC to the PC, the base number becomes 22 - (PC base number)
This way, the probabilities on the dice stay exactly the same.
Examples:

- The PC base number for defense (AC) is 10.
When switching the rolls, the base number for NPC attack will be 22-10 = 12.

- The PC base number for spell save DC is 8.
When switching the rolls, the base number for NPC saving throw will be 22-8 = 14.

So, applying the same to the stealth skill:

- The PC base number for passive perception is 10.
When switching the rolls, the base number for NPC stealth skill will be 22-10 = 12.
* The only PC skill that has a base number is passive perception. All other skills are rolled normally.

But there is a catch:
This is only valid when using PC passive perception.
And having the player roll passive perception defeats the whole purpose of passive perception!

In this case, you might prefer the usual contest of Stealth vs. Perception:
Both the NPC and the PC roll D20 and add the modifiers to see who has the highest values.

Tony Vargas · Jul 21, 2014

doctorhook said:
In 3.5E and 4E, I've had success with the "players roll all the dice" variant*. I find that this rule significantly increases player engagement, so I'd like to use it in my 5E game. Can anyone foresee any unique pitfalls to using this variant in 5E? Thanks for your input, gang.

Mathematically it works fine. That is, it works as well as the game's math already does with the DM rolling some of the dice. It does, of course, erase the artificial distinction between attacks that roll to hit and attacks that force a saving throw. You'll have to be careful with how some rules call out advantage & disadvantage, occasionally reversing them. Apart from that the biggest downside is that you can't fudge dice results - an option you might want to retain in 5e (as it was /very/ handy when running the prior editions that it most resembles), especially if you're running Apprentice Tier.

D&D 5E Using the "players roll all the dice" variant in 5E?

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