D&D 5E Speculating about the future of the D&D industry/community in a post-5E world

Eirikrautha

First Post
People who don't run the game are still a valid market, of course, but a complex one to target. The real area of potential conflict is where people do run the game, and are, as you say, tired of PF's complexity. The thing is, are those people willing to give up Paizo's tightly-themed, largely well-designed, extremely numerous APs for the single WotC AP for 5E (which isn't even an actual AP yet), when WotC have a long history of crummy/questionable APs, just in order to get lighter rules?

My guess is no, for the most part.

Especially as there are those among the PF community who actually like the crunch.

So this leaves 5E in a tricky place. They can't guarantee to get PF people back, because the pull of APs is very strong. They can't guarantee to get 4E people back because, well, they're not supporting a lot of the stuff people liked about 4E. They can't guarantee to get 3.XE/PF people back, if those people like crunch, because 5E is, superficially at least, anti-crunch. They can't guarantee to get OSR people back, because 5E is much more complex than most OSR games.

So... definitely a tricky one. I suspect good marketing will mean a stronger initial release than 4E (and 4E wasn't terrible at release), but it will then be up to WotC to hold on to those customers, and I don't think that's going to happen unless they get certain things in place.

As noted though, maybe the actual game is only the small part of the D&D brand, so maybe they can fail to get back PF/OSR/4E customers, for the most part, but still do great through branded stuff.

And yet, everything you mention as a positive for Paizo could easily also be a negative (with the exception of the number of APs). The tightly-themed and constructed APs are also very limited in scope, lead-by-the-nose, setting-bound, and change-averse. If your goal is to sit down tomorrow and read box-text (skipping half of the printed backstory because the players will never know it) until someone puts minis on the board for a fight, then, Pathfinder's APs (with some notable exceptions, mind you) are what you want. If you are looking for sandbox, adaptable, setting-neutral, role-play heavy, easily converted material... then not so much in my experience.

And hand-waving the lighter rules is just that (hand-waving). The whole reason that APs are so important for a Pathfinder GM is the absolute mind-numbing effort required to create large numbers of encounters. The rules make that level of AP necessary. Never once in Pathfinder have I seen a GM "wing-it" for an entire session. That was SOP in 1e and 2e AD&D (at every table I every played and/or ran)!

You don't need as tight of an AP structure when the rules allow quick and easy encounter design. And that's a big selling point for both player and DM.

Once 5e has a little more time, the core books, and a few more APs under its belt... we'll see...
 

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And yet, everything you mention as a positive for Paizo could easily also be a negative (with the exception of the number of APs). The tightly-themed and constructed APs are also very limited in scope, lead-by-the-nose, setting-bound, and change-averse. If your goal is to sit down tomorrow and read box-text (skipping half of the printed backstory because the players will never know it) until someone puts minis on the board for a fight, then, Pathfinder's APs (with some notable exceptions, mind you) are what you want. If you are looking for sandbox, adaptable, setting-neutral, role-play heavy, easily converted material... then not so much in my experience.

And hand-waving the lighter rules is just that (hand-waving). The whole reason that APs are so important for a Pathfinder GM is the absolute mind-numbing effort required to create large numbers of encounters. The rules make that level of AP necessary. Never once in Pathfinder have I seen a GM "wing-it" for an entire session. That was SOP in 1e and 2e AD&D (at every table I every played and/or ran)!

You don't need as tight of an AP structure when the rules allow quick and easy encounter design. And that's a big selling point for both player and DM.

Once 5e has a little more time, the core books, and a few more APs under its belt... we'll see...

You seem to have missed my point, I'm afraid.

I'm not arguing for Paizo, or their APs. Your whole "could be construed as negatives" deal doesn't actually engage with what I'm saying at all. I'll simplify it for you:

No-one who buys Paizo APs is likely to regard those things as bad points.

No-one who wants a sandbox, buys an AP.*

So what you're saying is there irrelevant.

As for the heavy rules leading to the APs, well, I agree 100% that the rules-heavy nature of 3.XE lead directly to the popularity of APs**. However, I would strongly argue that it is not why they remain popular. Rather, peculiar circumstances lead to a moderately common kind of product becoming a very common kind, and created a large audience for that product. That audience is not going away, because otherwise, they'd already have gone to the multitude of other RPGs which already offer that lighter DM load (OSR games, 4E, most RPGs).

As for your claim of "winging it" being "sop" in 1/2E, well, obviously that can't be true generally (true for your groups, sure), because Dungeon was popular, as were adventure modules, including ones equivalent to APs (they were usually boxed sets which were much more expensive and unfriendly than APs, though). 1/2E were much easier to wing it in, but they weren't trivial to do so, and a lot of DMs liked pre-written adventures.

So that market now exists and does not hate APs. I know a number of DMs who have kids and a lot of work, and don't feel they have time to write adventures to the standard that they would like, and those guys, they buy APs, and would buy APs for 5E, but would not write adventures for it - they just don't have time for creating maps and dungeons and elaborate plots and NPC backstories (or feel they don't, it's irrelevant as to whether they actually don't).

* = Unless they have literally no idea what they are buying.
** = I know this because I used to like APs, but 4E doesn't have remotely the same overhead as 3.XE/PF, so I found I didn't need them and started writing my own adventures again.
 

Razuur

First Post
I vote.... BOTH

I think people are pushing an antagonism between the two which may or may not be there.

I remember when both Babylon 5 and Star Trek DS9 were on the air. Two sci fi shows telling arc based stories about a space station in space - galactic wars, character transformations, evil threats from far away, etc. One could say that those shows were competitors of each other. Thing is, the folks that worked on those shows had a friendly rivalry. They competed against each other to make the best show possible. Both wanted as many viewers as possible. Both wanted the highest ratings as possible. But both wanted each other to succeed. Both groups enjoyed watching each others show. Both sides would get in touch with each other and let each other know when they had done a particularly great ep. It was a friendly rivalry. It was not an either/or. Some fans may have thought so, but I know tons of people who liked both.

This is how I view 5e and Pathfinder. Folks would have to be crazy not to want BOTH to succeed. I know that I will be buying from both companies, and using the seperately or together.

They don't have to hate each other. They don't have to want to destroy each other. Do they both want to make money? Yep. Do they both want to be popular and enjoyed by millions of gamers? Yep. Other than Fantasy Flight, they are arguably the biggest kids on the block, and it is not outside of reason to consider that the big kids can be allies, and even supportive other. There is enough pie for everyone.

I love 5e's dream of a lighter system that is easily convertible to all editions of DnD. And I love Pathfinder as I feel it is the best iteration of 3.Xe. Neither are leaving my world view. Both will get my money and respect.

And I suspect both secretly admire each other and do not want this turned into an "edition war".

It doesn't have to be an either/or - it can be BOTH.

Everybody can win here folks, if we let them.
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
There's less being spent on THAT KIND of marketing - i.e. gimmick-y, RPG-nerd-oriented, insider-oriented marketing.

But it seems to me that with all the releases of info to various broader-nerd/geek-oriented publications and even the upswing in coverage in mainstream stuff (which has got to be down to WotC in part, esp. given interviews/comment are often involved), there must be some serious marketing behind that. That shiz doesn't "just happen", not for WotC any more than anyone else, and it's not free, either.

Mark the calendars! We agree on something. I will also say that I think the marketing has been more sophisticated this time around. Priming the pump months ago in the mainstream media comes to mind. I don't remember them doing that for 4e (but I may have missed it), but I sure didn't miss it this time. The proximity of the 40th anniversary probably doesn't hurt their efforts either. People seem to like to talk about milestones.
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
Mark the calendars! We agree on something. I will also say that I think the marketing has been more sophisticated this time around. Priming the pump months ago in the mainstream media comes to mind. I don't remember them doing that for 4e (but I may have missed it), but I sure didn't miss it this time. The proximity of the 40th anniversary probably doesn't hurt their efforts either. People seem to like to talk about milestones.

I do certainly prefer the "no mocking" marketing this time around.

They are much more inclusive.
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
And yet, everything you mention as a positive for Paizo could easily also be a negative (with the exception of the number of APs). The tightly-themed and constructed APs are also very limited in scope, lead-by-the-nose, setting-bound, and change-averse. If your goal is to sit down tomorrow and read box-text (skipping half of the printed backstory because the players will never know it) until someone puts minis on the board for a fight, then, Pathfinder's APs (with some notable exceptions, mind you) are what you want. If you are looking for sandbox, adaptable, setting-neutral, role-play heavy, easily converted material... then not so much in my experience.

But this is where the OGL shines for Paizo. Frog God Games makes fantastic sandbox adventures for Pathfinder. The one I'm running now - Slumbering Tsar, may be the best sandbox adventure of all time. It's certainly the best I've run or played in.
 

GrumpyGamer

First Post
I think by Gencon 2015 we should have some ideas of where things are going.

It would not surprise me to see a significant Pelgrane Press presence at Gencon 2015 with how well received 13th age has been (the events they do have at Gencon 214 sold out very quickly).

I also think PF 2.0 is a shoe ready to drop and we should know more by Gencon 2015. PF rules are starting to bloat and Pazio will make a small fortune selling a new core rulebook. Pathfinder Unchained looks a lot like a Skills & Powers tester style product heralding a new edition.

D&D will be in full production including what ever comes next after Tyranny of Dragons. We should also know if there will be an OGL or other license issued. If a license is issued we should see tons of 3rd party published products at Gencon 2015.
 
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Merlin the Tuna

First Post
I think people are pushing an antagonism between the two which may or may not be there.
...
This is how I view 5e and Pathfinder. Folks would have to be crazy not to want BOTH to succeed. I know that I will be buying from both companies, and using the seperately or together.
You're likely right that Paizo & WotC aren't saying prayers that the other company crashes and burns. But the "competition makes things better" refrain is oversimplifying the situation and leads to dubious conclusions like "everybody wins if WotC & Paizo win."

In terms of what I think will happen, Pathfinder has cemented itself as a major player in the market even if I don't think it can quite stand up to D&D's brand strength. Between the two systems, they'll continue to own 90% or whatever of the market. Whether that takes the form of 60/30 D&D over PF or 50/40 PF over D&D, I don't know and don't really care. Neither is going away or becoming a small-fry.

But in terms of what I'd like to see happen? I'd like to see the D&D brand, style, & business model (including PF in the latter 2) release its stranglehold on the RPG market. And that pretty much doesn't happen unless 5E totally poops the bed. (And the indie scene surges to pick up the pieces rather than the whole industry dying in obscurity, of course.)

I don't think it's a bad system, even if the playtest did feel like Twitch Plays Pokemon: Game Design Edition. And honestly I'd sooner play 5E than PF. But the systems are incredibly similar in being rules-heavy, sim-heavy, combat-heavy fantasy RPGs carrying a lot of the same baggage that Gary brought with when he adapted the original from Chainmail. There's room for that in the RPG market, and I'm not ashamed to say that there are times I want to bust out a battlemat and throw down some 4E. But right now you pretty much must answer yes to "Do you want to fiddle with a ton of numbers and cast Fireball on owlbears?" to survive first contact with the community, and frankly I think that kinda sucks. Yes, there are lots of other great games out there, but it's sort of like going grocery stores all your life and only seeing Vanilla and French Vanilla ice cream in the freezers. Sure, there might be specialty ice cream shops scattered around that have 31 other flavors you might like. But if you don't like vanilla & vanilla is synonymous with ice cream for you, why would you go in?

Again, the games themselves are fine and I don't think anyone is having wrongbadfun by playing one, the other, or both. But them monopolizing the market is, in my eyes, partly responsible for its marginalization. And that monopoly gets broken much more dramatically by actual-D&D floundering than by PF doing so.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Again, the games themselves are fine and I don't think anyone is having wrongbadfun by playing one, the other, or both. But them monopolizing the market is, in my eyes, partly responsible for its marginalization. And that monopoly gets broken much more dramatically by actual-D&D floundering than by PF doing so.
You have a point. D&D is the only TTRPG with mainstream name recognition, so it's the point of entry for most into the hobby, and it is a very - distinctive - game, and the people who play it are those who love it, or learn to cope with it. That may repel a lot of potential new players from the hobby who might have been retained if they'd tried some other game. The problem being, they don't know other RPGs exist, and wouldn't be able to pick out the right one even if they did.

But, D&D has already foundered and all that happened was that D&D-with-the-serial-numbers-filed-off rose to take it's place.
 

Dungeoneer

First Post
But right now you pretty much must answer yes to "Do you want to fiddle with a ton of numbers and cast Fireball on owlbears?" to survive first contact with the community, and frankly I think that kinda sucks.

That's right! Won't somebody think of the owlbears?!?

owlbear.jpg

* sorry, off-topic I know, but I couldn't resist thread-crashing. I love this image!
 

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