D&D 5E I for one hope we don't get "clarification" on many things.

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
"Let the GM be independent and creative! Mike said that while explaining some rules. Apropos of nothing, I can't wait for the next offering that prefabs something from those other guys."


"I agree! What was that Mike explained?"


"GMs should be more independently creative, right? Agree? Am I right?"


"Let me be clear that I want things to be clear, and consistently consistent, but not extensively extensive which is clearly, consistently different."


"Clearly, consistency in some areas should be extensively avoided."


"Clearly."


:) I love EN World. We're such an ironic lot . . . :)
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Why? because it provides a consistent experience across all the tables, it makes organized play easier and well more organized, it keeps published adventures on the same expected difficulty, but most of all the rules provide our shared language as people who want to talk about the game.

I don't want a consistent experience across tables. I want, to be able to have games with *different* experiences!

I'm not into Organized Play, so that's not a selling point for me at all. I don't think the gaps for clarification really impact the difficulty of adventures on the whole. We are not looking at issues where, "OMG, the power level of this character is either starving puppy or godlike, I need a clarification!" The base mechanics are pretty solid and balanced. There are a few gaps. That's okay.

And, if the game really had no interpretation... there'd not be a whole lot to talk about, honestly. This board would be like talking about chess. Who wants that? Having differences drives creativity and conversation!
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
A comfortable DM is a good DM.

Consistant play experiences never happen. Even in Organized Play.
Words of wisdom.

I agree with the OP. I like the rules to be inspirational and open ended, the ref (and players good sportsmanship) is there to get things back on the rails if an unusual interpretation or misunderstanding sneaks in.
See rule zero. Which, I now suspect, should be followed by another rule: the GM may not say "no."

It's a Catch-22 really; keep the rules light and your GM can run the game faster, unless you have a bad GM. Make the rules heavy and your GM doesn't need to make a judgment, but you'll spend a lot of time looking through books instead of playing.:confused:
 



Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter

Nope. Those are people who want talking about chess to be like talking about chess. Those aren't people who want *these* boards (about RPGs) to be like talking about chess.

And no, it isn't a quibble. It is a relevant point. Folks can go to those forums, and ask themselves, "Do I want EN World to be like that?" Let's see how many say "Yes!"
 

Dausuul

Legend
It's a Catch-22 really; keep the rules light and your GM can run the game faster, unless you have a bad GM. Make the rules heavy and your GM doesn't need to make a judgment, but you'll spend a lot of time looking through books instead of playing.:confused:
I think the problem is the idea that sufficiently comprehensive rules can rescue the game from a bad or even a mediocre GM.

The GM is the linchpin of any tabletop RPG. Without the judgement, inspiration, and creativity the GM brings to the table, you're just playing a really slow, clunky MMO with crudely painted plastic graphics. The ruleset is valuable because it can lift the burden of constant adjudication from the GM's shoulders and aid communication between the GM and the players. But as soon as dealing with the ruleset becomes itself a burden, it's gone too far.
 

Bryk

First Post
I'm quite happy leaving most of the rulings to the DM.

There's just a few areas where some additional clarification would be good, especially when it comes to Organised Play.

Stealth and Hiding being the big issues. The rules make a lot, lot more sense when you hear Mike Mearls talking about how they should work and leaving things up to the DM to cover those cases that writing comprehensive rules wouldn't really work for, but they aren't expressed that way in the PHB. Instead, they read like a set of hard-and-fast rules with bits missing.

So, clarification of that sort of stuff in the DMG would be appreciated.

Cheers!

I personally find the rules for stealth to be the exact level of precise. You need some level of obscurity, low level for skulkers/wood elves, a medium person for lightfoot halflings, and heavy obscurity for the rest.

Wood Elf :
"
Mask o f the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when
you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain,
falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
" - I'm guessing this DOES NOT include low light alone. but behind a tree would be sufficient.

In terms of what Mike refers to, giving disadvantage, I personally only feel that applies when there is only low level. If the creature/target saw you when you fired, then yes, they are going to know if you pop behind the same tree, you aren't hidden. However, if you pop behind a different tree/object... maybe. Giving a DM rule to control this makes perfect sense.

If a creature keeps hitting you when they are in darkness(heavy obscurity) with darkvision, and you are 100 feet away with a torch and can't see them. They should always have advantage with a successful hide. Heck as a DM I would always give them advantage due to not being seen on obscurity alone (no check needed).

The fuzziness I feel really isn't there, between dim light causing low level of obscurity.

"
Unseen Attackers and Targets
Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice
by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking
in darkness.


When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have
disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether
you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting
a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in
the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but
the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not
whether you guessed the target’s location correctly.
When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on
attack rolls against it.


If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when
you make an attack, you give away your location when
the attack hits or misses.
"

"
The most fundamental tasks of adventuring—noticing
danger, finding hidden objects, hitting an enemy in
combat, and targeting a spell, to name just a few—
rely heavily on a character’s ability to see. Darkness
and other effects that obscure vision can prove a
significant hindrance.


A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In
a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog,
or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on
Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque
fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature
in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the
blinded condition (see appendix A).


The presence or absence of light in an environment
creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim
light, and darkness.


Bright light lets most creatures see normally. Even
gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns,
fires, and other sources of illumination within a
specific radius.


Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly
obscured area. An area of dim light is usually a
boundary between a source of bright light, such as
a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light
of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A
particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land
in dim light.


Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters
face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit
nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a
subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness.
"



"
Hiding
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until
you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is
contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature
that actively searches for signs of your presence.


You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you
make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a
vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can’t
be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage
might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.


In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger
all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach
a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain
circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay
hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing
you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there’s a chance
someone will notice you even if they aren’t searching. To
determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM
compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s
passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the
creature’s Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses
or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For
disadvantage, subtract 5.


For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency
bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and
proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom
(Perception) of 14.


What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining
whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well
you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily
obscured, as explained in chapter 8
"

All from Player Basic Rules.
 
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Thaumaturge

Wandering. Not lost. (He/they)
And no, it isn't a quibble. It is a relevant point. Folks can go to those forums, and ask themselves, "Do I want EN World to be like that?" Let's see how many say "Yes!"

My point was the quibble. Your point is valid. :p

And, no, I'd no rather discuss chess than I would monopoly online. The creative variability of D&D is the attractive part.

Thaumaturge.
 

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