D&D 5E Supplemental books: Why the compulsion to buy and use, but complain about it?

prosfilaes

Adventurer
You are the one who juxtaposed "suffering at the hands of fate" with "puppets being led on to a predetermined conclusion" in response to my post. That doesn't seem to offer much of a middle ground.

How should I have written this? I have no clue what I should have written so you didn't interpret it as me being against fudging rolls ever. I literally wrote "I don't have a strong stand against fudging die rolls"; I don't know how to make it any clearer that I don't have a strong stand against fudging die rolls. I referred back to Sadras's post; did I need to make that explicit?
 

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Hussar

Legend
How is the GM fudging to ensure that a well-laid player plan succeeds equal to the players "being puppets being led on to a predetermined conclusion"?

Who judged that plan to be "well laid"? You, the DM did. Why do I auto succeed? Because you let me. How is this not a pre-determined conclusion? In what way is this not pre-determined? If my plan wasn't quite as well laid, would I automatically fail? How "well laid" does my plan have to be?

Sorry, either say yes or roll the dice. If you want me to succeed, just tell me that I succeed. Illusionism is not how I want to play. Your fudging would actively disrupt my enjoyment of the game.

-----

Oh, and I would like to thank Mistwell for correcting me. Thank you ever so much for that Mistwell, your eloquence is elucidating as always.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
Ick. As a player, I find it makes me miserable when I feel like nothing the PCs do matters; we do incredibly awesome, and the DM fudges for the monster, and we do incredibly horrible and the DM fudges for us. Why do we spend all this time playing out the battle if all the dramatic results are going to be smoothed away for us?

Maybe because all of the effort the players have gone through shouldn't necessarily be thrown away because of a hot streak on the dice? I mean if you want the ultimate expression of "nothing the PCs do matters" - that's what a TPK based on a series of unlucky rolls might be. A player could make all the right moves and still throw a 1 on the d20 leading to a total failure. Should all those right moves be ignored because the dice say so? How exactly is that making sure the things the PCs do matter?

By fudging a bit as a GM, I can help those preparations, those good decisions, and the things the PCs do matter when the dice don't.

Just because you think the players don't know doesn't mean they really don't.



I don't have a strong stand against fudging die rolls, but luck is part of the game. Given a choice between knowing that no matter what we do, the BBEG will stand for 4 or 5 rounds, and knowing that depending on luck we might be able to kill him before he gets to act or he might kill us, I'd take the latter. Suffering at the hands of fate is fair game; being puppets being led on to a predetermined conclusion isn't.


I will sometimes fudge not often but I think it is a tool in the DM toolbox that can be used to save a game or stop a player from being miserable.

I can count on one hand the times I have fudged a dice roll but those times I was glad to know I had the ability to do so.

I had a PC die at the start of a session he ended up not playing much in that session he did help me run some NPCs in combat but that is not the same as playing your character. Next session he is raised back in the thick of things and they are in combat again and what was supposed to be a cake walk turned into a disaster I kept rolling crits and he kept rolling misses. I could tell that he was getting frustrated and not having fun. When I rolled another crit I didn't roll to confirm it and I halved the damage on the dice so that he would go down but not die. After the game he said to me i don't know if you fudged any of that but if you did thank you. It was absolutely the right decision to do as a DM for my player at that time.

Another time I had a player who found out on Friday that they were going blind. I knew she depressed and was looking forward to playing. She was the type that really hated character death. You could do anything else and she was okay but killing her PC was not something she enjoyed she accepted it as part of the game but it was her least favorite.

I made a decision that no matter what her PC would not die that night and I fudged a few dice rolls so that it didn't become a possibility. Her fun that night was more important than dice rolls.


This is why I roll behind a screen so that I have the ability to fudge if I think it is the right thing to do. Like I said I rarely do it. And I don't think it is a tool that should be used all the time. Another reason I roll behind the screen is I often roll things I don't want the players to see. For example I roll their listen checks and spot checks as well as bluff and sense motive. This was agreed upon because this way the players don't change their actions if they fail because they don't know they failed.

I also change things on the fly I will take off hit points if I can see a fight dragging on and on and the players are not having fun or I will add a few hit points to make it more exciting if the players are having a great time. I refuse to be a slave to a planned encounter. A DM needs to know when to be flexible.

I had a bad experience with this as a player. I was given at the start of the game a magic bow that was especially devastating against elves. We got to sixth level and not one elf had ever been in the campaign. Finally with one arrow left we came against the BBEG who was a drow he was about to sacrifice an innocent. I was two range increments away so was taking penalties on the shot. I made it and it was a crit. I rolled max damage and the bow special damages finally came into play. It was one of those moments players live for a chance to really shine be the big hero and save the day. Except it wasn't he had a brooch of shielding and absorbed all my damage and I was out of arrows. But what they hey right the wizard/druid took care of him and was the big hero again.

The DM showed me that when he wrote the encounter he had put a brooch of shielding on the guy and that he was not trying to stop my character from having a moment. And on one hand he was right but on the other I think it was bad DMing because he was being a slave to his game encounter as written. As a DM if I had a player do that especially a player who had never had the opportunity to use their ability in game I would have instantly thrown out the brooch and furthermore I would have had it kill the NPC.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Who judged that plan to be "well laid"? You, the DM did. Why do I auto succeed? Because you let me. How is this not a pre-determined conclusion? In what way is this not pre-determined? If my plan wasn't quite as well laid, would I automatically fail? How "well laid" does my plan have to be?

I'm specifically reacting to the players and what they're doing. How can the success be pre-determined?!? I'm pre-determining nothing. I am evaluating - just like GMs do when the players do something that the game world needs to react to.

At this point, I'm guessing you're just trolling me because we seem so diametrically opposed on so many gaming issues.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm specifically reacting to the players and what they're doing. How can the success be pre-determined?!? I'm pre-determining nothing. I am evaluating - just like GMs do when the players do something that the game world needs to react to.

At this point, I'm guessing you're just trolling me because we seem so diametrically opposed on so many gaming issues.

Walk me through this. The players come up with a plan. The plan is not foolproof, so, it does require random resolution at some point. You, the DM, like this plan and think it's a great plan. You then fudge the odds by changing die roll results so that the plan succeeds. Is this accurate? Note, I'm not saying you do this every time, just, that this is how it works when you do.

How is that not predetermining results? What part of that is not pre-determined? Which is fine, by the way, but, my point is, if you're going to roll, why ignore the results? Why not just skip the die rolling part, tell the players they succeed and move on. What purpose are the die rolls serving here? Because, from what I can tell, the only purpose here is maintaining an illusion that there was any challenge at this point in the game.
 

Sadras

Legend
Why not just skip the die rolling part, tell the players they succeed and move on. What purpose are the die rolls serving here? Because, from what I can tell, the only purpose here is maintaining an illusion that there was any challenge at this point in the game.

Because we are creatures of habit, because we would prefer (hope) the die rolls to support our internal decision, because we dislike having to fudge.
 

Hussar

Legend
But the only reason you have to fudge is because you are forcing a die roll on a situation where the outcome is predetermined. The plan will succeed. The DM will ensure that.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] on the illusionism issue.

If the GM is going to declare that the plan succeeds regardless of the die roll, then I don't want the roll. Just say yes.

My guess is that, for those who want the roll, it's because - even though the roll itself is an out-of-game thing - it maintains some sort of immersion into the ingame situation (because of the habitual association - maybe this is what [MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION] had in mind? - between the rolling of the die and the unfolding of ingame events).

If my guess is correct, for those using the dice to support immersion, the outcome of the roll is less important than the process of rolling.

because we would prefer (hope) the die rolls to support our internal decision
I think this desire for "validation" by the dice can be a real one. I think it is strongly associated with a certain sort of simulationist sensibility - such that "saying yes" rather than getting the outcome via die roll is a type of admission of failure of the simulation. I also think, therefore, that the desire for validation is likely to fit well with the desire to use die rolls as part of the immersion-maintaining process.

If this is how you approach the game, then the illusionist/fudging approach is probably superior to the "say yes or roll the dice" approach.

Hence the need for the game to be supported by inclusive, pluralist GMing advice rather than advice founded on a presupposition that everyone is playing the same way!
 
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Sadras

Legend
But the only reason you have to fudge is because you are forcing a die roll on a situation where the outcome is predetermined. The plan will succeed. The DM will ensure that.

True, but perhaps the dice can evaluate the degree of success. So even though one might not go strictly by the rules and predetermine success on a given action, the die roll might be used to reflect the degree of success on given action.

Hence the need for the game to be supported by inclusive, pluralist GMing advice rather than advice founded on a presupposition that everyone is playing the same way!

Sorry, I was with you up until this point, and then I got lost in the English. Can you please elaborate more on this sentence?
 

pemerton

Legend
TSorry, I was with you up until this point, and then I got lost in the English. Can you please elaborate more on this sentence?
Sure.

People play the game differently. And this is not because they're wrong, or immature, or idiots. It's because they like different aspects of, and different approaches to, RPGing.

Because of this, I think a good GMing manual for D&D shouldn't just assume that people are playing one particular way, and explain how to do that. It should identify, without nonsense, the main different approaches - eg Gygaxian skilled play, "immersion"/"illusionist" play with the GM leading the story, player-driven action-resolution play where "say yes or roll the dice" makes sense, etc. And talk about the pros and cons of each, and the way different sorts of GMing techniques fit into those different approaches (or don't).

Personally, I think good GMing advice is more important than half-a-dozen different healing modules.
 

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