D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

5ekyu

Hero
As we figured out above, the fact that the DM has to create a forumula(mechanic) for how much gold it takes, as well as a formula(mechanic) for the effect it has, spending gold does in fact have mechanical effects. That they are not listed in the book like classes doesn't change that. In both cases it's player choice, and in both cases there is mechanical effect.



I played with a lot of people during those years, both at home and at conventions where I both played and watched D&D games. Not once did I ever hear a complaint. It wasn't the lack of internet. More likely the complaining started after the advent of the over regulated 3e and 4e games.



Everything the DM does is work on the DM's part, even if there are rules for it in the books.



It supports magic item sales. If it didn't, it wouldn't go out of the way to mention to DMs that they can do it, and then give them ideas on how to go about it.



And if I were in a game and the game didn't go where I moved it, that game would be railroading me. I won't do that to my players.



It doesn't happen often, but I do see it happen when the adventures don't appeal to the PCs.



The same way I would make a fighter relevant during a wizarding contest at the county fair. The same way that I would make a ring of feather falling relevant in the middle of a desert. The same way I would make a sword relevant during a purely social encounter. The same way I would make the ability to see in the dark relevant when outside during the day.

I wouldn't. Mechanics don't have to be relevant at all times and in all situations. Just for the sake of argument, though, if the PCs get caught, the evil prince might be more predisposed to capture rather than kill aristocrats. He might also be more willing to talk before the big fight, spilling his plans. And so on. So there you go, my forumulae(mechanical effects) for maintaining an aristocratic lifestyle.
Re the "sake of argument" aristocrat, in one of my games, a character living an aristocratic lifestyle would have drawn certain kinds of attention and been approached with opportunities. In fact, akin to your note, a nearby prince would almost certainly have had agents inform him of new aristocrat in town and opportunities for contact occur.

I think the focus of what does it do for me once we start a fight is part of some of the disconnects as some GMs/players dont wait til the action for the benefits to begin.

The way I see it - "I spend on aristocrat finery" is as relevant as "I research magical lore" or "I case the area for places to rob" in that these are all the players driving the direction of play and the nature of the hooks and flavor of the opportunities - even if it's not sandbox.

To me, if you look at most non-sandbox adventure paths, modules, campaigns etc, you see sections on "how to hook your party" and a variriety of not totally generic and devoid of flavor hooks.

But choices like the above are the players telling you hooks they would like you to use - so why choose to not use them?

One can think of gold spends from a non-sandbox perspective as the characters spending gold to buy hooks of a flavor they prefer.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
As we figured out above, the fact that the DM has to create a forumula(mechanic) for how much gold it takes, as well as a formula(mechanic) for the effect it has, spending gold does in fact have mechanical effects. That they are not listed in the book like classes doesn't change that. In both cases it's player choice, and in both cases there is mechanical effect.
Aye, but it’s less work for the DM when mechanics are invented by the game designers instead of by themselves, and options with hard-coded mechanics are often more appealing to players than being forced to rely on DM fiat.

I played with a lot of people during those years, both at home and at conventions where I both played and watched D&D games. Not once did I ever hear a complaint. It wasn't the lack of internet. More likely the complaining started after the advent of the over regulated 3e and 4e games.
If you think that people who desired more robust mechanics did not exist simply because you didn’t encounter them, you are fooling yourself. What’s the saying about D&D spawning a million game designers who all wanted to make D&D with one thing changed? There have always been, and will always be, people dissatisfied with any set of RPG rules.

Everything the DM does is work on the DM's part, even if there are rules for it in the books.
Indeed, DMing is a lot of work. But adjudicating rules laid down by the game designers is generally less work than inventing rules from scratch.

It supports magic item sales. If it didn't, it wouldn't go out of the way to mention to DMs that they can do it, and then give them ideas on how to go about it.
There is a world of difference between acknowledgment and support. The 5e rules acknowledge the option of magic marts. They do almost nothing to support that option.

And if I were in a game and the game didn't go where I moved it, that game would be railroading me. I won't do that to my players.
There’s a difference between the game not going where you move it, and “whatever you do is what the story is about.” And a railroad is only a problem when you don’t want to be going where it’s taking you.

It doesn't happen often, but I do see it happen when the adventures don't appeal to the PCs.
Well, yeah, at that point it’s your job as the DM to change course, as you don’t want to be running an adventure your players aren’t interested in. Again, that’s very different from letting the players take the helm. You say you wouldn’t want purely reactive players, and I agree, but I also wouldn’t want )and wouldn’t want to be) a purely reactive DM.

The same way I would make a fighter relevant during a wizarding contest at the county fair. The same way that I would make a ring of feather falling relevant in the middle of a desert. The same way I would make a sword relevant during a purely social encounter. The same way I would make the ability to see in the dark relevant when outside during the day.

I wouldn't.
Great. Then if I’m in your game, I’m not wasting my money on lifestyles. I’ll go with Squallid, or subsist off the land with Survival, because if the more expensive lifestyles aren’t useful to me in the fun part of the game, then I’ll save my resources for something that is. Which means pretty much once I’ve bought the best armor in the category of my choice, I don’t have much to spend my gold on. A few silver here and there to restock on ammunition and rations, maybe. Maybe a few copper for lamp oil if I don’t have darkvision. And then the rest is pretty much useless to me. I guess I can bribe guards with fistfuls of platinum, because what the hell else am I doing with this money?

Can you not see how, if you have even one player who feels this way, your game’s economy has a problem?

Mechanics don't have to be relevant at all times and in all situations. Just for the sake of argument, though, if the PCs get caught, the evil prince might be more predisposed to capture rather than kill aristocrats. He might also be more willing to talk before the big fight, spilling his plans. And so on. So there you go, my forumulae(mechanical effects) for maintaining an aristocratic lifestyle.
See, now we’re talking. This is the kind of thing the book needs to be explicit about if it wants a not insignificant portion of players (and DMs) to care about downtime expenses.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Aye, but it’s less work for the DM when mechanics are invented by the game designers instead of by themselves, and options with hard-coded mechanics are often more appealing to players than being forced to rely on DM fiat.

DM fiat is the greatest tool the DM has, and unless it's in the hands of a bad DM(rare), it's good for the players, too. Too many try to use it as if it were a bad word.

If you think that people who desired more robust mechanics did not exist simply because you didn’t encounter them, you are fooling yourself. What’s the saying about D&D spawning a million game designers who all wanted to make D&D with one thing changed? There have always been, and will always be, people dissatisfied with any set of RPG rules.

I didn't say that they didn't exist. What I implied, and am saying straight out now, is that if I didn't encounter them given the sheer numbers of D&D players I encountered, the complainers were in a small minority.

There is a world of difference between acknowledgment and support. The 5e rules acknowledge the option of magic marts. They do almost nothing to support that option.

Acknowledgement and suggestions ARE support, even if meager. And I will absolutely grant you that the 5e support on this is very meager.

There’s a difference between the game not going where you move it, and “whatever you do is what the story is about.” And a railroad is only a problem when you don’t want to be going where it’s taking you.

Unless the players have explicitly agreed to ride the railroad, a railroad is always a problem.

Well, yeah, at that point it’s your job as the DM to change course, as you don’t want to be running an adventure your players aren’t interested in. Again, that’s very different from letting the players take the helm. You say you wouldn’t want purely reactive players, and I agree, but I also wouldn’t want )and wouldn’t want to be) a purely reactive DM.

It's actually a lot of fun. You still get to build encounters and stories. They just pertain to what the players have originated as their goals. If the players suddenly decide to go to the Northern Barbarian Tribes and take them over, you prepare for that. If during that story they become fast friends with some of the barbarians and shift from take-over to ally, and then join them to fight the frost giants, you prepare for that. You're reactive, but still creating stories and encounters, and at the same time the PCs truly are the driving force of the story, rather than just being along for the ride.

Great. Then if I’m in your game, I’m not wasting my money on lifestyles. I’ll go with Squallid, or subsist off the land with Survival, because if the more expensive lifestyles aren’t useful to me in the fun part of the game, then I’ll save my resources for something that is. Which means pretty much once I’ve bought the best armor in the category of my choice, I don’t have much to spend my gold on. A few silver here and there to restock on ammunition and rations, maybe. Maybe a few copper for lamp oil if I don’t have darkvision. And then the rest is pretty much useless to me. I guess I can bribe guards with fistfuls of platinum, because what the hell else am I doing with this money?

If you were in my game, you'd probably quit. The "fun part of the game" is only about a third to half, depending on the situation, of my game. The rest is the "amazingly fun part of the game" ;)

Can you not see how, if you have even one player who feels this way, your game’s economy has a problem?

I would encourage that sort of player to go find a more compatible game. Not out of any kind of malice, but because people should enjoy themselves when playing D&D. My game wouldn't be to that person's liking, but someone else's would be.

See, now we’re talking. This is the kind of thing the book needs to be explicit about if it wants a not insignificant portion of players (and DMs) to care about downtime expenses.

I strongly disagree with this. When you codify that sort of thing, you are stifling creativity. People see that the book lays out A, B, and C as the ways to use aristocracy, which causes them to not even try to think up D-Z, which are also ways to use aristocracy. If the game is going to go into this at all, it should just be some sort of vague statement to the players and DM to be creative with how the uses for gold can impact the game in a positive manner for the PCs.

Encourage the creativity. Don't stifle it.
 



smbakeresq

Explorer
Agree to above. Go get the old Fields of Blood for 3.5 or go back the new 5e version, both by same author, Matt Colville. You will find plenty of uses for gold, in fact you will find out why Kings sponsor the expeditions that are the hook you see to get PC out on adventures.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
And what do I mean about so much guidance? This is a golden age. First, you have all the resources of prior editions! I mean, there is some really good stuff in all of those books. Second, you have the DM's Guild. Third, you have so many free resources on the internet- people putting material out there for you to use, for free! Fourth, you have these types of forums.
Why do you call it a "golden age" when the one thing missing - official 1PP support - isn't available?

This edition isn't prior editions. Just like you wouldn't tell a gamer "you don't need the 5E MM, you have lots of monster stats for prior editions".

I do not understand the necessity of people making convoluted arguments about gold, when what they really want is an Official Magic Item Price Guide to Spend Loot and Adventure Better(tm). It's the same thing, different day. Some people want warlords. Some people want more complex martial classes. Some people want an official magic item price guide.
Sorry but now you're either ignorant or you are arguing in bad faith.

These "convoluted" arguments boils down to a very simple chain of logic, which has been explained over and over again. It can't come as a surprise to you.

A game can't just hand out gold, it needs to provide ways to use gold too. And while downtime spending is supported, not all groups use or even like downtime. Crucially, official adventures assume little to no downtime.

Plus, to truly say the game supports backwards compatability, the lack of utility-based magic item pricing is a black hole in that support.

Characterizing the demand for "Official Magic Item Price Guide to Spend Loot and Adventure Better" to merely "some people want X, others want Y" is belittling and demeaning. It's dismissive of the real actual issues, and WotC should not be allowed to get away with heaping lots of gold on us in their adventures without taking responsibility for making sure it can be used within the context of that adventure. Anything less is broken.

And why do you dismiss the white elephant in the room - the fact that WotC has gambled (and won) on the fact that they can just dump an entire playing style. They show all the signs of changing the course of D&D into something that doesn't require nearly as much know-how and development resources. Creating robust utility-based guidelines is hard, and needs continued support. A one-off by a happy fan is falling far short of what's needed: official core rules that get the same attention from Sage Advice and errata as any other complex rules framework.

When I first heard of 5E, and that they admitted the failure of the 4E approach, I was enthused. Finally we would get robust high level play and improved parameters for magic pricing - two of the biggest weaknesses of 3E.

I am still waiting.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Agree to above. Go get the old Fields of Blood for 3.5 or go back the new 5e version, both by same author, Matt Colville. You will find plenty of uses for gold, in fact you will find out why Kings sponsor the expeditions that are the hook you see to get PC out on adventures.
Thank you. I am sure that's an useful resource for certain kinds of campaigns (though not ones using official adventures).
 


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