D&D 5E Party optimisation vs Character optimisation

Disclaimer: If you don't care about min/maxing and to you the game is about the story and the character second, this thread doesn't apply to you. However if you like to play mechanically strong characters (and also enjoy story), then read on.

My DM has been creating a lot of custom monsters recently and I have been testing out various different classes against these monsters. While these are not true adventuring day style encounters, we also put a bit more into these encounters than simply using a straight up arena style fight. We use maps, minions, and have "goals" for each little encounter, sometimes with secondary objectives, which always seems to be saving civilians with my DM.

I've always known that Party Optimisation in 5e is strong, but after using various combinations of classes now together, it's apparent to me it's *much* stronger than individual optimisation.

For example, running the following party - Lore Bard, Veng Paladin, Abjurer Wizard, Light Cleric - consistently overcame most challenges *easier* than many other combinations I have ran, even DPR heavy ones (Such as Crossbow Expert Fighter + SorcLock). And in general, the more spell casters you have in your party generally the easier higher level combats are.

I found parties that focused more on martial abilities could do amazing damage on paper, but were constantly "fouled" up in encounters and unable to make the most of their damage potential. In one battle I created a Frenzy Barbarian that could do amazing damage, but he was swallowed and his damage potential was neutered. Not only that, due to lack of spell casters, I couldn't really do anything about the situation except pile on the damage and hope I rolled well. Not a good strategy.

Some Thoughts:

I really really now appreciate Lore Bards cutting words. This ability is so strong at higher levels when things can do some seriously nasty stuff to you that being not hit is far superior than soaking the damage.
I really appreciate the Paladin aura even more than I did before, and in fact, I rate the Paladin as the strongest overall martial class you can have in your group, more so than a crossbow expert Fighter, due to the "Group Help" factor he brings. Vengeance Paladins being able to Misty Step as well makes them extremely good at getting out of tricky situations (such as being swallowed or grappled).
I tried running a few different Cleric 9/Other Class X builds, and I really appreciate a full level Cleric much more than I did before. Yes they don't do great damage with their weapons, but not having access to Freedom of Movement, Greater/Lesser Restoration, Dispel Evil and Good, Heal, and a whole host of other useful spells can make higher level combats way trickier than they need to be. Clerics are far more useful than just bless bots.
I find the Wizard far superior to the Sorcerer later on (and even the SorcLock). Yes, you can do some amazing damage with the Sorcerer - I was pushing 120-150DPR going 'Nova', but I quite often sat there looking at my spell list when my party was in trouble thinking "Hmm, not much I can do here". However if being a blaster is your play style choice then this class is for you, I won't take that away from you. I did find though the ability to 'twin' buffs is nice, but I found with the action economy it's usually just better to kill stuff quickly.
It's definitely not all about damage, not as much as I used to think it was. Yes, damage is still the main way you win an encounter, but you also need to think about recon, mitigation and survivability, because the odds aren't always in your favour.
Don't trust that a lot of the optimisation builds aimed at character optimisation will give you an easier time. That amazing DPR won't help you when you're feared, swallowed, held, or knocked unconscious and there's nothing your party can do to help.

Now this is aimed at the "combat" pillar of the game obviously, but I do know the Bard/Paladin/Wizard/Cleric combination also has great utility out of combat in the campaign I run, be it social or exploration, and party optimisation is just as important for those pillars as it is for combat.

I have not seen a lot of party optimization - beyond more casters being better than fewer (even at low level, more healing or more AE spells seems to make a world of difference), as you noted. What synergies are you seeing?

As far as odds being in your favor, that's still /mostly/ up to your DM. Granted, the 5e encounter guidelines don't give the most consistent results ever, so you might occasionally find yourself overmatched when the DM didn't intend it. Aside from that, though, the DM could always throw a tougher or weaker encounter at you. When he did - particularly in 3.5 - an optimized character stood a better chance than an unoptimized one. What do you think has actually changed (because it's not 'you can't be sure of the odds' - that's always been the case) to make DPR a less viable optimization strategy? It's not like you can't count on hitting - thanks to bounded accuracy, DPR should be quite dependable.

The Lore Bard + Abjurer + Paladin + Light Cleric party has a lot of synergy, but this is mostly caster synergy. This is why I think casters at higher levels are better than non casters. Non caster types tend to be individually very strong.

They can enable the Paladin to do ridiculous amounts of damage through Hold spells.
They can all help each other to mitigate attacks (Arcane Ward, Warding Flare, and Cutting Words).
They have bloody good saving throws in the Paladin aura and with bless.
They can do a lot of AoE damage very fast dropping large numbers of enemies.

Out of combat the Bard and Wizard's familiar make great scouts, the Wizard can disarm magical traps, and the Bard can handle mechanical traps. The Bard also has some great travel and utility spells gained through magical secrets which makes them hard to wrest the strategic initiative from.

In social situations they also do very well, I've had two encounters now where the Bard has turned hostile NPC's friendly by making a DC of 30 and changing the course of the adventure.

All around, I rate this party composition *very* highly. They are good all round.

One Barbarian arch-type though that I liked a lot was the super tank Barbarian. Hill Dwarf + Totem of the Bear abilities. He can run in and do respectable damage, but be a very tough opponent to take down, and can "control the battlefield" in a sort. I like him backed up with a lot of ranged power.
I also like the idea of him being backed up by a pole-arm master Fighter with sentinel, but I haven't tested this combination yet. I think I'll put that next on my list.

I won't use a frenzy Barbarian again, even though he can do some seriously good damage (especially on a crit + half Orc). He just doesn't have enough things he can do to help the party for when things start getting rough.

As far as odds being in your favor, that's still /mostly/ up to your DM. Granted, the 5e encounter guidelines don't give the most consistent results ever, so you might occasionally find yourself overmatched when the DM didn't intend it.

Click to expand...

Unless you go crazy I haven't found this to be much of a problem (again with spell caster heavy groups), because they can wall of force or do things that enables them to get away (again, another reason I rate the Wizard way above the Sorcerer).

I actually find the encounter guidelines to be pretty good these days.

Agreed that party optimization is where it's at. It's no use, for example, having a mobile stealthy party built around ranged combat and also a dwarf in plate mail with move 25.

I'm on phone so a few miscellaneous observations:

Paladin auras look amazing on paper but they force you into a tight formation which brings its own vulnerabilities. I've come to prefer Lore Bards stacking Bless and Bardic Inspiration because they can cover any formation even though they use more resources.

Inspiring Leader is a fantastic feat for your party to have available. Healer is good too.

It's often cheaper to have a teammate cover your weakness than to do it yourself. See move 25 dwarf above. He'd have to multiclass to monk/barb or take the mobile feat to be able to run away from most foes--or the wizard could cast Longstrider on him for 1 spell slot. Similarly, when I see a pure warlock take Armor of Shadows it makes me cry. You only have a few invocations. Why isn't a wizard casting Mage Armor on you instead?! (I know there are exceptions for wizardless parties and warlock/abjuror multiclass PCs.)

Tactically, there's nothing wrong with taking a Dodge action or staying behind cover.

Don't go charging into a fight where you will become the easiest target. That just burns resources. If Gomli's got the troll under control, Frido, don't enter the fight just because it's your turn! The troll will kill you and then Gomli will be annoyed that he has to do your job now.

Fluff-wise I hate clerics, but they have some awesome mechanical options and combos available. My favorite is Death Ward (cleric) + Magic Jar (wizard). Again, this is a combo that is far cheaper for a party than for an individual.

I've find that Shadow Monks are not impressive as front-liners but are great for party play because of 1.) Enabling stealth for everyone via Pass Without Trace; 2.) stunning strike on tough monsters; 3.) decent ranged option keeps them useful on the back line; 4.) have lots of cool random abilities that enable combos. E.g. monk (immune to poison, good in melee, can stun on opportunity attack) + bard (stinking cloud) = very sticky chokepoint and hard-to-kill monk. Or Cloudkill if you prefer.

emdw45 said:

Paladin auras look amazing on paper but they force you into a tight formation which brings its own vulnerabilities. I've come to prefer Lore Bards stacking Bless and Bardic Inspiration because they can cover any formation even though they use more resources.

Click to expand...

Well it my optimal group I have access to all of the above.

Here is what they do:

Enemy spell caster(s)? Spend in the Abjurer first (and Bard close behind). Counterspell GG - he is at +10 counterspell now. If he does get a spell off, the Abjurer can shrug it off. I've had to protect my important NPC casters with golems and other such minions now, because the Abjurer can shut them down too easily.

Enemy with potent breath weapon like the Dragon? They super buff the Paladin (fly, haste, protection from energy) and send him in, while they go ethereal or whatever and maintain concentration.

All other enemies? Doesn't matter if you stick around the Paladin that much. I can't tell you the amount of times his aura has saved them from something bad happening, be it a trap or a monster ability. It is just as amazing on paper as it is in game, and if you go down the Ancient Path you don't need to worry too much about spell AoE's either. The only thing they really fear at the moment are mind flayers.

Multiclass warlock/clerics that get heavy armor proficiency and take the crossbow expert feat to use eldritch blast in melee. Use eldritch blast as default attack for everyone, tons of spells, everyone gets warlock slots and channel divinities back on short rests. You could mix it up with a few other classes besides cleric but the gist is everyone gets spells back on a short rest.

Generally speaking, it's still more about balance. The more balanced your group is, the easier it is to overcome challenges. DPR is overrated, IMO. Martial characters are still very strong, even if they suffer short term difficulties, especially as you run more combats per day.

The optimal setup is based on the size of the group.
3: Healer/Mage/Tank; 2 Melee/1 Ranged
4: Healer/Mage/Tank/Specialist (Archer, Rogue, Monk); 2 Melee/1 Ranged/1 Switch
5: 2 Healers/Mage/Tank/Specialist; 3 Melee/2 Ranged
6: 2 Healers/Mage/2 Tanks/Specialist; 3 Melee/2 Ranged/1 Switch
7: 2 Healers/2 Mages/2 Tanks/Specialist; 4 Melee/3 Ranged

You get the idea. Healers are by far the most important, even if they're only partial healers (Paladin & Ranger). Tanks are next, because you need the front line to hold (keeping the mages safe). Mages are more important than Specialists, but both are less important overall (you really only need 1). You can work multiple roles in to improve efficiency even more (your example: 2 1/2 Healers, 2 Mages, 1 Tank, and 1 Specialist with 4 characters)

Paraxis said:

Multiclass warlock/clerics that get heavy armor proficiency and take the crossbow expert feat to use eldritch blast in melee. Use eldritch blast as default attack for everyone, tons of spells, everyone gets warlock slots and channel divinities back on short rests. You could mix it up with a few other classes besides cleric but the gist is everyone gets spells back on a short rest.

Click to expand...

What can they do to help out each other? One guy gets swallowed and imminently facing death, how are you going to save him? Or someone else gets held and the caster zips out of sight (or goes Ethereal), now what? Mind Flayer is about to eat your friends brains and its not your turn? Or an enemy spellcaster is about to cast a Meteor Swarm on your group, you have no counter-spell? I just rolled a crit and you're facing 127 damage which will one shot you? (Real game example). You all have the same saving throws and you've just come across a Mind Flayer inquisition, oh what a shame, nice knowing your party there.
This is my entire point. I ran some of the best DPR builds know together, but due to lack of mitigation and survivability at the party level, they were able to be picked apart.

Also, I don't think you can use your Warlock ability to get Cleric spells back on a short rest. Definitely doesn't feel like RAI to me.

You take human get the feat, go warlock 2, maybe more but that is all that is needed for agonizing blast and devils sight (better than darkvision). Multiclasing into a few of the cleric domains gives you heavy armor prof don't worry about the strength min or do or be a dwarf. You don't get cleric spell slots back, but you do get warlock spell slots back that you could have used for cleric spells.

It doesn't have to be cleric thats why I said you could mix it up a bit. Sorcerer for casting darkness is great if everyone on the team sees in magic darkness but non of the enemies.

But the idea isn't to focus on warlock it is to poach eldritch blast the most powerful cantrip in the game that scales based on character level not caster level and gives you multiple attacks again based on character level not class or caster level. Also the spell slots that work for any spell prepared or known that come back at a short rest, giving the whole team a reason to break often and recover. Crossbow mastery is just so it doesn't matter if the enemy is in melee or not.

Is it the only way to play, no. Is it the best way to play, no. But this is an optimization conversation and 2 levels of warlock + other full caster for everyone on the team is pretty optimal.

DaveDash said:

Enemy spell caster(s)? Spend in the Abjurer first (and Bard close behind). Counterspell GG - he is at +10 counterspell now. If he does get a spell off, the Abjurer can shrug it off. I've had to protect my important NPC casters with golems and other such minions now, because the Abjurer can shut them down too easily.

Click to expand...

Golems would work, but you could also just have an apprentice. The big weaknesses of Counterspell are 1.) short range (like most magic), and 2.) eats your reaction. If the Abjuror spent his reaction on a Shield spell, or on Counterspelling the apprentice's fireball (how would he know to hold his Counterspell in reserve?), or if the enemy caster is more than 60 feet away from the Abjuror when he casts his spell (easy to accomplish is open terrain since the enemy caster gets a move before he casts), the Abjuror's bonuses to Counterspell don't even matter.

Abjuror's magic resistance is nice though. I'm skeptical about "just shrug it off" but I can believe that his odds of making the save are fair-to-good. I'm a bit surprised that your bad guys who you've said don't have time to Planar Bind elementals do have time and money to create golems, which often run into the hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, but in any case the idea of having a few bodyguards is good sense for a number of reasons even if there aren't Abjurors in the picture.

Enemy with potent breath weapon like the Dragon? They super buff the Paladin (fly, haste, protection from energy) and send him in, while they go ethereal or whatever and maintain concentration.

All other enemies? Doesn't matter if you stick around the Paladin that much. I can't tell you the amount of times his aura has saved them from something bad happening, be it a trap or a monster ability. It is just as amazing on paper as it is in game, and if you go down the Ancient Path you don't need to worry too much about spell AoE's either. The only thing they really fear at the moment are mind flayers.

Click to expand...

Coincidentally, Mind Flayers are indeed the enemy I had in mind as well. You really, really don't want to bunch up in tight formation around them.