NetFlix's DareDevil - Your thoughts?

Morrus · Apr 21, 2015

goldomark said:
The costume and name do not make the hero, the actions do

Nobody said he wasn't a hero from the start. But he wasn't Daredevil. Costumes and a name may not make a hero in a common English usage of the term, but they do make a superhero as the term is used in a comic book. Clark Kent was born with his powers, and helped folks when he was younger, but he doesn't become Superman until he's an adult. Matt Murdoch is the same; he becomes Daredevil in the last scene of the season.

It's an origin story for Daresevil and Kingpin. Origin stories in comic book terms aren't just how superheroes get their powers - it's how they begin their identity as a specific named, costumed superhero.

Sups 1978? It has been a while, it is a lot less of an origine story than Batman Begins. We get some stuff at the beginning and then he is a hero. Very different from the last Superman movie.

You don't see Superman in the first half of the film, just like in Batman Begins where you don't see Batman for the first half. In both movies, the titular costumed identity shows up over an hour in. The first half of each film is an origin story.

Kramodlog · Apr 21, 2015

Morrus said:
Nobody said he wasn't a hero from the start. But he wasn't Daredevil. Costumes and a name may not make a hero in a common English usage of the term, but they do make a superhero as the term is used in a comic book. Clark Kent was born with his powers, and helped folks when he was younger, but he doesn't become Superman until he's an adult. Matt Murdoch is the same; he becomes Daredevil in the last scene of the season.

Powers and actions make superheroes. Murdock already has his* powers and is already fighting crime. The costume and name are secondary. Kent helps people, but he isn't actively a hero yet. The struggle to decide what to do with those powers is part of origine stories. It pretty much is a right of passage for superheroes, except Captain Murika**. Murdock already dealt with that. It is in part why the series work. It does away with a trope.

It's an origin story for Daresevil and Kingpin. Origin stories in comic book terms aren't just how superheroes get their powers - it's how they begin their identity as a specific named, costumed superhero.

And if there is another season, well get a ne vilain, with flashbacks. It doesn't make it an origine story. Plus take Stick. Put him and his flashbacks in a second season and no one will say the second season is an origine story.

You don't see Superman in the first half of the film, just like in Batman Begins where you don't see Batman for the first half. In both movies, the titular costumed identity shows up over an hour in. The first half of each film is an origin story.

I'll take your word, it has been a while.

*Batman might now have official super powers, but he ain't doing humanly stuff. Murdock takes has more realistic fights and he has super powers.

** Steve Rogers is different. He chose his state and the responsabilities that come with it. No dead parents, no radiactive spider bite, no mutant gene...

Morrus · Apr 21, 2015

goldomark said:
Powers and actions make superheroes. Murdock already has his* powers and is already fighting crime. The costume and name are secondary.

Yes, you said that, and I disagreed. I'm not really interested in just repeating the same things over and over. Clearly we disagree on the definitions of basic comic-book terms.

Kramodlog · Apr 21, 2015

Morrus said:
Yes, you said that, and I disagreed. I'm not really interested in just repeating the same things over and over. Clearly we disagree on the definitions of basic comic-book terms.

It is a tv series. Heck an online series, not a comic book. What Disney/Netflix is doing with DD, JJ, Power Man, Iron Fist and the Defenders is newish. We need to see this with different eyes. New paradigms, new standards, new meaning for words are at play here.

Right now DD isn't getting a second season. Maybe AKA Jessica Jones will be sort of second season for DD. The origine story paradigm might not apply to this.

gamerprinter · Apr 21, 2015

goldomark said:
And it is the death of Bruce Wayne's parents that drive him to become a superhero. It doesn't mean that a flashback of their deaths means we have an origine story.

I don't know Super Hero comics at all - was never interested (even as a kid). So my only exposure to Daredevil is this show. And I had no idea how the hero became a hero, I don't know what you'd normally consider an origin story. From my point of view, the flash backs was Daredevil's origin story. Though you could certainly do an entire episode to introduce an origin story, instead of the 30 seconds provided by the flash back, I don't see how it is any less of an origin story. Though you and I might have a complete different understanding of the concept "origin story".

So what do the flash back mean (to you)?

Kramodlog · Apr 21, 2015

gamerprinter said:
So what do the flash back mean (to you)?

A flashback is "a scene in a movie, novel, etc., set in a time earlier than the main story."

Morrus · Apr 21, 2015

goldomark said:
new meaning for words are at play.

If you have to invent your own meanings for key words is a debate, you're not really communicating. Yeah, sure - if "origin story" means "bagel" then it's not an origin story. If you like.

Kramodlog · Apr 22, 2015

Morrus said:
If you have to invent your own meanings for key words is a debate, you're not really communicating. Yeah, sure - if "origin story" means "bagel" then it's not an origin story. If you like.

Ha ha, that would be witty... if it were.

Marvel is very aware of superhero fatigue. This why movies are something more than superhero flicks now. Captain Murika 2 was a spy thriller. Guardians of the Galaxy was an action comedy in space. Ant-Man is a heist movie. Spider-Man won't get a new origine story from his Civil War appearence. Disney is aware of the problem. Besides, audiences are savvier about superheroes now. Does the same story need to be told again?

With what they are doing with Netflix it seems new and they are moving away from origine stories. DareDevil moved away from it. Jessica Jones is another potential interesting example when we read what we know about the show. This is what is on the wikipedia page:

A former superhero suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder who opens her own detective agency, Alias Investigations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.K.A._Jessica_Jones

We are far from a supehero origine story. She is a retired superhero starting a P.I. business. We might get flashbacks of how she got her powers and why she retired, but this is a show about a P.I. in a world with superheroes. A superhero origine story? Nah. Flashbacks do not automatically mean origine story.

In the show Luke Cage will be introduced before he gets his own show:

A man with superhuman strength, unbreakable skin, and a mysterious past that Jones encounters in the course of an investigation and who changes her life immensely. Colter described Cage as "a neighbourhood hero, very much linked to New York and Jessica Jones. [He] is a darker, grittier, more tangible character than Iron Man or Thor. He likes to keep things close to his chest, operate on the hush-hush. He has these abilities but he’s not sure how and when to use them.

Now this is the origine of how they met, sure. I wonder if he will get his origine story in her show and it will be delt with when he gets his.

gamerprinter · Apr 22, 2015

goldomark said:
A flashback is "a scene in a movie, novel, etc., set in a time earlier than the main story."

I know what a flashback is, the question I posed to you (that you completely missed), is what does the use of the flashbacks in Daredevil mean to you? If they are not origin story (in a 30 second bite), what purpose did the flashbacks in the series serve?

Umbran · Apr 22, 2015

gamerprinter said:
I know what a flashback is, the question I posed to you (that you completely missed), is what does the use of the flashbacks in Daredevil mean to you? If they are not origin story (in a 30 second bite), what purpose did the flashbacks in the series serve?

I'm going to venture something, not having seen the show.

Both sides are correct in this. There is origin story, "How did I get to where I am now?" (In Daredevil's case, "How did I get to be blind yet able to sense my world, and how did I get to know all this cool fighting stuff?") and there's origin story, "How did I become the iconic figure?"

Spider Man is another good example of a two-stage origin story. Yes, he's a nerdy did that gets bitten by a radioactive spider. That, you can give in 30 seconds. But the whole bit with the death of Uncle Ben, and the "with great power comes great responsibility" speech done in a way so you understand the emotions that drive the character's actions won't fit in 30 seconds.

In terms of genre tropes, the difference between costumed-hero and "guy with abilities that does stuff" matters. Jason Bourne is a fine action-movie character, but he's a superspy, not a superhero. Clark Kent is not Superman until he puts on the blue and reds, taking on a public persona and making himself not just a person, but an icon.

NetFlix's DareDevil - Your thoughts?

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel

gamerprinter

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Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher

Umbran

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