Gay Rights

Kramodlog · Jun 26, 2015

Pride parades and pride related events are important for the LGBT community because so many people tell them they should be ashamed of who they are and what they like or should just stay hidden under a rock.

Umbran · Jun 26, 2015

Morrus said:
What's wrong with being flamboyant in public?

Excellent question. For geeks - consider SDCC (or any convention know for its cosplay). Pretty darned flamboyant, and in public.

Dannyalcatraz · Jun 26, 2015

And, like Cosplay, pride parades aren't for everyone in the community celebrating itself.

Kramodlog · Jun 26, 2015

I have to say Thomas' dissent is perplexing to say the least. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...001&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook

So the Jews in extermination camps didn't lose their dignity? That man is a sad joke and needs to lose his job. Can that happen under US law?

Edit: Scalia ain't any better. http://www.vox.com/2015/6/26/8851173/gay-marriage-supreme-court-scalia

Bullgrit · Jun 26, 2015

So... you'll be fine, just shut up and don't remind us you're here?

No. Note I said *openly* live. Please don't put words in my mouth, nor twist my words to mean something completely different.

Looks like this issue is another case of "you must be completely all in acceptance of all of this or you must be completely all in opposed to all of this." Can one not look at the issue and see mostly good, but point out a few possible problems?

What's wrong with being flamboyant in public?

Nothing for the individual. But if you are participating in something as a representative of a greater group for the overall purpose of garnering general acceptance by the general public, doing things to stand out as "weird" (distinctly different than normal) doesn't engender general acceptance by those who see that as weird.

Which is likely to bring comic book fans more acceptance as a generally normal culture?
This:

or this:

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We, on the inside of the culture, see those cosplayers as fun fans, having fun. We even celebrate them. To people on the outside of the culture, (20 years ago), they are weird, loser, geeks. Comic geekdom has become far more accepted/mainstream because the general public has seen that we aren't all the negative stereotypes that media used to portray us as.

And I truly think gays have become more accepted in general society than they used to be because "normal" people have seen enough "normal" gays in their life to learn that the "we're here and we're queer!" types aren't the normal representatives of a gay person. Kids coming out to their parents nowadays don't put the fear in their parents of them suddenly completely changing into a flamboyant drag queen.

Which is a better representative for "gay pride"?
This:

or this:

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Bullgrit

Bullgrit · Jun 26, 2015

For the record: I find those flamboyant participants in gay pride parades hilarious, because I, too, have a good sense of humor, and I'm not bothered by gayness (in both senses of the word). But I'm already sold on the idea that homosexuality is not a problem in any way. But I know there are plenty of other people in our culture that have a hard time coming to accept it, and I'm just saying that I think trying to sell it through "in your face", sometimes almost militant gay pride might not be the best way to sell a concept.

Bullgrit

Kramodlog · Jun 26, 2015

If you want "weird" and marginal to be seen has "normal", it ain't going to happen if you hide what is "weird" and marginal. Exposure to different things is how people learn to get use to them and they become the "new normal".

Morrus · Jun 26, 2015

Bullgrit said:
For the record: I find those flamboyant participants in gay pride parades hilarious, because I, too, have a good sense of humor, and I'm not bothered by gayness (in both senses of the word). But I'm already sold on the idea that homosexuality is not a problem in any way. But I know there are plenty of other people in our culture that have a hard time coming to accept it, and I'm just saying that I think trying to sell it through "in your face", sometimes almost militant gay pride might not be the best way to sell a concept.

There comes a point where you stop saying "please, sir, accept me" and instead you say "whether you accept me or not, this is how it is, and there's nothing you can do about it".

A pride march is not asking; it's telling. It's a statement, not a request, and it's made in a public, noticeable way. People take thousands of different approaches - legal, cultural, institutional - but there isn't an overall strategy guided by some central body. So some people march, some fight for legislation, some make movies, some make inclusive RPGs, some just live happy lives.

Whether it's working or not? I think evidence suggests that it is. Today's court ruling in the US says that it is; last month's referendum in Ireland says it is. And flamboyant people - of any culture, nation, sexuality, gender, or age - are just that: flamboyant people.

Which is likely to bring comic book fans more acceptance as a generally normal culture?

That's not why people cosplay. People cosplay because it's fun, not to send cultural messages.

Umbran · Jun 26, 2015

Bullgrit said:
But if you are participating in something as a representative of a greater group for the overall purpose of garnering general acceptance by the general public, doing things to stand out as "weird" (distinctly different than normal) doesn't engender general acceptance by those who see that as weird.

(bold emphasis mine) And, as I suggested above - have you considered that maybe that isn't the purpose of the parade?

Which is likely to bring comic book fans more acceptance as a generally normal culture?

But, while it is public, conventions are *NOT* about getting the general populace to accept geeks. They are not public-relations efforts. They are for geeks to celebrate and revel in their geekdom.

So, apply that to the parade. The parade isn't about folks who aren't gay!

Alzrius · Jun 26, 2015

Umbran said:
Danny, have you seen analysis on what the legal basis for the ruling is? The article you linked seems to say the basic argument is the 14th amendment, "Equal Protection" clause.

This isn't analysis, but for anyone who wants to read the opinion itself, it can be found here. It's fairly easy to understand, rather than being the wall of "legalese" that I think people expect from the highest court in the land.