The new DM's mistake

Our group passes the DM duties around, as part of a continuous campaign. One of our group hasn't DM's in decades, and decided to give it a whirl.

He's a bit of a power gamer, and his character gets a treasure share equal to what he hands out to party members. This is leading him to a mistake common to many new or inexperienced DMs. He's burying us in treasure.

We're 9th level just turning 10th. We're averaging over 100k per encounter, to be split 7 ways.

Inexperienced DMs do this, whether consciously or not, because they're afraid that the players won't like the game. Their answer? Lots of loot. It amounts to bribery.

Now several of us suspect that this particular DM/Player is looking to award himself some high end, carefully selected goodies to complete his "perfect build".

Have you ever had such a problem? Too much treasure? Not one that people complain about too often, I'd wager.

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Greenfield said:

Our group passes the DM duties around, as part of a continuous campaign. One of our group hasn't DM's in decades, and decided to give it a whirl.

He's a bit of a power gamer, and his character gets a treasure share equal to what he hands out to party members. This is leading him to a mistake common to many new or inexperienced DMs. He's burying us in treasure.

We're 9th level just turning 10th. We're averaging over 100k per encounter, to be split 7 ways.

Inexperienced DMs do this, whether consciously or not, because they're afraid that the players won't like the game. Their answer? Lots of loot. It amounts to bribery.

Now several of us suspect that this particular DM/Player is looking to award himself some high end, carefully selected goodies to complete his "perfect build".

Have you ever had such a problem? Too much treasure? Not one that people complain about too often, I'd wager.

Click to expand...

Do all players get to pass their treasure onto their own PC's while they are taking a turn at the DM's chair? Or is this just something this player worked out special?

My first 5e campaign was a series of converted B/X adventures. While I did reduce the magic items a bit, I still wound up giving my PCs too much treasure, in terms of magic items and gp. Within no time, they had more gold than they knew what to do with, and I felt like I was scrambling to come up with ways for them to spend it that felt satisfying, instead of just, "oh, you're rich, so now you can buy that $1,000 bottle of wine with your tomato and mozzarella panini." And the extra magic items also forced me to pump up the encounter difficulty to compensate. Neither problem was insurmountable, but it was hard to find solutions that didn't just feel like the old advancement treadmill. Ideally, I'd like players to identify something they'd really like to do or have, but can't, because they don't have the proper loot, and then, once they've had a chance to work up an appetite, getting the required loot is super satisfying.

Our current DM had a similar problem. He not only passed out a lot of loot in the first few sessions, but also gave out a ton of XP. Characters were leveling up before they'd had a chance to test the limits of their current powers. I tried to say, "hey, maybe we can have a little less xp?" but I felt like an ungrateful jackass, and I feel a little bad about over-critiquing the first-time DM, as I'm the "experienced DM" of the group. (All relative, of course.)

Anyway, it's not the end of the world, but never wanting for loot effectively dulls one of the key hooks for a lot of adventures, namely, the acquisition of loot.

"Having is often not so pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true." Mr. Spock

Have I ever had this particular problem? No. I think this particular problem is pretty much unique to the insane social dynamics of this group. Seriously, there is so much fodder for situation comedy going on here, that it makes me want to cry. The resulting show would be the Seinfeld of RPGs.

But the general problem of too much treasure is a very common one. Too much or too little reward are the two classic problems in an RPG and have been with us since the beginning. Granted, it's a bit subjective. My campaign has been going about 6 years now. The party is now about 8th level. An average encounter yields 2-3 g.p. worth of treasure. No ones complains about insufficient reward because they don't have anything to measure against, and besides 1 g.p. is a lot of money in my game world. I'm in a pretty good situation. No one has a wish list of items because no one has a DM's perspective on magic items. Most have no idea what could be available. Items seem powerful compared to what they have, not weak compared to what they potentially could have.

There is more too running a Monte Haul game than just bribery. There is probably some of it that is fear they won't like the game, but the more general answer here is that DM's run a Monte Haul game to flatter their own ego in some fashion. Either they are seeking approval from the players directly and so take vicarious pleasure from the player's joy in receiving, or else they are showing off and trying to seem cool by being bigger. Often I think they feel they are being daring and edgy by giving lots of treasure. And with some groups, all this actually works and everyone has a good time because no feels that beyond a certain point increased scale has a diminishing return that cheapens it.

If riding on war elephants are cool, then riding on war mammoths is even cooler. And if riding on war mammoths is cool, then riding on war oliophants as big as a barn is even cooler. And if riding on war oliophants the size of a barn is cool, then riding on war beasts the size of skyscrapers is even cooler. And so on and so forth, with never the sense that maybe you've drifted into schlock and cheese at some point. Some groups think there is no limit to the number of supers you can append to the front of Star Destroyer and still make them more super. Quantity for them always has a quality all it's own that always trumps anything else - "OMG, I can't believe you imagined something even bigger."

I'm not one of those players. I believe excess is not a virtue. At some point for me you've out Heroded Herod. The quantity of a thing only impresses if it manages to fit into the context. The quantity only impresses if I can feel the weight of effort it took to create such a mighty quantity. If it appears out of thin air with the power of thought, it's it to me like a giant helium balloon comically parading across the scene ever in danger of letting all the gas out and slumping pitifully to the ground.

Consider what I said about my own game where treasure usually means a few silver pieces, and finding a couple of gold pieces is big time. In this game, if the PC's ever throw open a treasure chest and it is filled with gold, it will literally be like throwing open a chest and finding it is filled with gold. In the average game where 1 g.p. is chump change, every bloody chest in the world is stuffed with gold. I can remember being in such a game, opening a chest filled with gold, and slumping in disappointment because the stuff was literally so valueless it didn't bear weighing myself down with it. In such a game, you have to find literal dunes of gold before it really matters, and then it's accidental comedy as you have to bring in the teams of mules loaded with bags of holding just to haul the treasure around. And at some point, when you are finding the mountains of gold and the cities of gold, you are like, "You know. Gold's just this stuff. People use it as building material. They dump gold bricks into the ground as filler material because it's literally cheaper than dirt. The only reason it's valuable is the same reason dirt and horse manure is valuable - because it costs so much to haul the dang stuff around. Who gives a flip. Can we just convert 10,000,000 g.p. into gems and jewelry and be done with it. No, I don't care if we lose 40% of the value. I'm tired of walking around with Scrooge McDucks vault strapped to the mule."

If I find the +10 hackmaster that has been lost for millennia, and is the mightiest weapon in the mortal world - literally a godslaying sword - then I bloody well have to believe that the circumstances of me finding it explain why it was lost for millennia or the whole thing feels like a sick joke. I mean at least Bilbo found The One Ring where no one thought to look and no one ever visited and it was a little thing easily hidden, held by a pathetic creature who was one of the few beings that could hold it and put it to petty secret uses. And at least we know, "Yeah. Bilbo would have never found that thing if someone or something hadn't divinely intervened to ensure you did.", and that it really was no 'present', but a curse leading to an anti-quest. OK, I can buy that. But when I find random tremendous treasure and I see the hand of the 'creator' in it, I'm more likely thinking, "Swell. I've a DM that's a show off." than, "Wow. Look at all the backstory that has been carefully crafted into this moment. We are about to embark on an epic story."

Now I've seen treasure used in excess in a judicious manner. One DM I had gave the part a ton of treasure - enough to found or buy a kingdom - because that's precisely what he wanted the players to do, because he wanted to change the style and focus of play and up the scale of the player's imagination from looting dungeons to a Game of Thrones and the wheeling of armies on the field. Somehow though I think the DM is question is thinking more along the lines of, "With this loot I can average 48.5 more damage per round! I can defeat CR +3 monsters now with little challenge, which means I can kick down doors, kill things, and take their stuff even faster! Snowball effect! Exponential curves for the win! Near infinite godlike power shall be mine!!!!"

I think what you are going to discover here is a basic problem with having rotating DMs. Each DM is going to try to create the sort of game they would most want as a PC (or think that they want). But while there may be convergence on some points, there is going to be divergence on others. You aren't even going to manage a majority vote here. Each DM can wreck the game as they like.

redrick said:

Do all players get to pass their treasure onto their own PC's while they are taking a turn at the DM's chair? Or is this just something this player worked out special?

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The rule is that the DM's character, who is off in NPCdom, earns Exp and treasure to match what the PCs get.

While this does mean that the DM gets to pick what his character gets, the value has to commensurate with what anyone else would have gotten. "Good Form" has dictated that anything unusual or particularly well suited to the character gets cleared by the group. This particular player/dm has proven himself immune to the call of "Good Form" in the past. We may have to enforce it if he gets too cute.

redrick said:

Our current DM had a similar problem. He not only passed out a lot of loot in the first few sessions, but also gave out a ton of XP. Characters were leveling up before they'd had a chance to test the limits of their current powers. I tried to say, "hey, maybe we can have a little less xp?" but I felt like an ungrateful jackass, and I feel a little bad about over-critiquing the first-time DM, as I'm the "experienced DM" of the group. (All relative, of course.)

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This is kind of what I'm talking about. Inexperienced, and perhaps insecure DMs trying to keep people interested in their game by overdoing the rewards. Our group already has rules in place to deal with bad DMs and those who abuse their position.

Greenfield said:

The rule is that the DM's character, who is off in NPCdom, earns Exp and treasure to match what the PCs get.

While this does mean that the DM gets to pick what his character gets, the value has to commensurate with what anyone else would have gotten. "Good Form" has dictated that anything unusual or particularly well suited to the character gets cleared by the group. This particular player/dm has proven himself immune to the call of "Good Form" in the past. We may have to enforce it if he gets too cute.

This is kind of what I'm talking about. Inexperienced, and perhaps insecure DMs trying to keep people interested in their game by overdoing the rewards. Our group already has rules in place to deal with bad DMs and those who abuse their position.

Click to expand...

Yeah, definitely a mistake of inexperience that I've seen in myself and others. All I can say is that, if there really is no cheese involved (which maybe there is, as you say), to just try and treat it like any other inexperienced DM problem. If there's an appropriate way to make a suggestion outside of the game, and if the other players agree, maybe you can suggest he tone down the treasure a bit, because it's spoiling you. Try not to do it at the table (something I have to remind myself about sometimes), but afterwards. Most likely, he'll realize that it's happened once it's too late, and then regret giving you all the loot (again, unless all he wants is his own loot.) In that case, play along with him to look for interesting ways, in-character, to offload some of that extra loot. Look for investment opportunities. Try to find financial solutions to problems instead of violent ones. It's just like any other weak-sauce hook — if the DM is struggling to come up with a good hook for the adventure, you can either go back to the tavern, or you can play along and help strengthen the hook on your own.

For instance, our characters have been making lots of donations to their respective churches and families. My halfling fills an envelope full of coins, addressed to, "MOM AND DAD, PRIKLEMARSH", and hands it to the nearest dirty wanderer every chance he gets.

We try to keep character wealth at about the levels recommended in the book, on a per level basis. When one adventure comes in too heavy or too light, the next DM makes a few adjustments in what they give out, and it equalizes.

This particular DM, however, isn't coming in "a little heavy" Like I said, he's dumping a hundred k per encounter. No DM will will be able to hand out lunch money for several adventures after this.

<EDIT>According to the DMG (Page 135), the Character Wealth by Level table, 9th level characters should have a total wealth of about 36,000. 10th level character should have about 49,000. Individual shares are averaging 14,000 plus per encounter. Two encounters worth is almost a 9th level PC's total budget. Three is almost the 10 level number. We're heading into encounter 4 this Saturday.</EDIT>

One point that set off alarms in everyone's heads was when he specified, "25k worth of minor items from the Magic Item Compendium". Since I'm the host and "party secretary", it's my job to share out the Exp and loot via e-mail, so he was asking me to fill in some blanks. The problem? MIC is specifically excluded from our "valid source" list for the campaign. He is always trying to bring in stuff from there, and we are always having to shut him down.

I pointed this out, and he insisted that the loot had to come from that book.

I flat out refused, and told him why: Items from outside sources need to be cleared by the group (i.e. all the DMs), and I'm not them.

He insisted, explaining that he wanted treasures the players didn't often see, because they were traveling in an area and culture they were unfamiliar with. (To North Africa by sea).

I suggested that I pick from Sandstorm, Stormwrack, and the various Complete books we've approved. I came up with a list and he approved it. I don't think he was happy.

This suggested to us that he wants to award his own character goodies from that book, and was trying to "license" it by using it to source items for everyone else.

I could hear several of the players sharpening their skinning knives as the email exchange went on.

It's been said that one should "never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.". Several of us suspect that this case is the exception to that rule.

Ah well.

Yeah, sometimes new DMs shower their players in treasure. Sometimes experienced DMs do the same thing. And you know what? That can be fun. People enjoy playing games like Diablo and Torchlight precisely because the neverending stream of loot is exciting. This is a fantasy game and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with appealing to that fantasy of wealth and acquisition. I'd be extremely hesitant to describe the situation in such judgmental terms as "the DM buying the players' approval". As long as the players approve, what's the problem? The real problem arises when the DM is providing a fantasy that the players do not approve.

But all that is by way of an aside. From what you're describing, I don't think you've got a "new DM" problem or a "too much loot" problem so much as a "conflict of interest" problem. To what degree have you discussed this issue frankly with the player in question? He's unlikely to react well to being accused of rule abuse, but even if there are some initial hurt feelings, you may find that things improve once the concerns are out in the open and everybody knows where everybody else stands. But you know your group, and I don't, so you're in a better position to judge whether this is the right course. The only other advice I have is to reconsider the details of this rotation system you are using and the incentive structure it creates. Which is kind of a shame, because it sounds like most of your other players were not abusing it.

The rotation system is a bit unusual. I find most groups that rotate DM duties rotate entire campaigns, so the characters change. One suggestion for this situation may be that, as this one DM's style is very different from the other DM's, his rotation should be into a group of different characters. The other DM's, who share a more similar style, including loot levels matching the WBL tables, approved sources for magic items, etc., would keep the present system - a single campaign with rotating DM's.

If the issue is only that this DM wants a campaign style that showers the PC's with loot, and sources magic items from other sources, with the combined effect that PC's are considerably more powerful, no problem - in his game, we have PC's who are considerably wealthier than the WBL tables would result in, and considerably more powerful due to the extra wealth, and the extra sources of magic items to choose from.

If the issue is that he wants to bump up his PC's power level by extension, his PC in the other campaign is no longer connected at all to the results of his DMing, so problem solved.

Either way, the problem of the other DM's having to adjust their games for this increased wealth and power is removed.