Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

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Dannyalcatraz

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Pretty much covered before I got back to the discussion, but yeah: even though our police can be quite deadly and have some mil-spec gear, they're not soldiers and do not use force the same way as soldiers do.

Likewise, while our soldiers can be quite diplomatic and gentle, that isn't the training they get. The vast bulk of their gear is for conns, comms, and kills. Training in things like crowd control, community outreach anti-crime patrol, etc. is minimal.

The museums got looted because nothing in them was of military strategic import, and thus, was not guarded.

And if they HAD been, the looters would have been kept away with pistols, machine guns & grenades as opposed to batons, mace, rubber rounds, etc. Headlines would have been VERY different...VERY negative.
 

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Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
I mean when a country or person does something bad - the rest of the governments (for good PR) condemn the bad/poor actions of said country or person.
Depends on interests.

Do we have a lack of education/training in SA? Sure we do. Does that mean all people of colour never receive the opportunity. Not at all.
It isn't just a question of excluding black people from office. It is about everyone being able to hold office. It is about equality of chance. Putting arbitrary hoops to jump through excludes a lot of people. Not to mention that it raises the question of who decides what hoops are used. Of course reality is a bit more complex. There are plenty of hoops to jump through to get into politics, like raising money, but institutional ones should be at a minimum.

Okay here is the thing - enough people suffered corporal punishment (including myself) and we all were fine.
Personal anecdotes are non sequiture.

Physical violence is just not acceptable. It is abuse period. It causes more problems than it solves and is a vicious circle that is hard to break. We still have problems with domestic violence even if it has been outlawed for some time. Sbusing kids just means they'll grow up to be adults who abuse kids. Like the weight of apartheid, domestic violence doesn't go away just with legislative change.

Severe punishment for vandalism? Exactly how many cases of "excrement throwing" students do you expect to encounter in a year?
The right to an education is more important than the cleanliness of inanimate objects.

Does More so than the 8000 Asian students which were expelled last year from the USA?
For vandalism?

Also please go google reasons for expulsion from universities - vandalism is listed as one of the criteria.
Heh, you aren't in Québec. Here students stay in university even if they indulged in what the authorities call "assault". This student leader hasn't been kicked out of university as far as I know. http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/uqam-protester-finally-out-of-jail-pending-trial-1.2353960

Filter in place of presidency? Do you realise that the majority of nurses in South Africa are people of colour and one of their requirements is a grade 12 schooling certificate. Are you really calling it a filter or are you disguising another agenda here with me?
Yes, I disguise my agenda because I'm a shame of all the kittens on it. I just loooooove that kitten that say "I hate mondays"!

As for the presidency, I already said what I thought about exclusion above.

Using criminals period,
Who are mostly black, no?

because the systems employed currently in the USA or South Africa really rehabilitates criminals?
The US aren't a model when it comes to its judicial and penal systems. I'm thinking Norway. *stars in eyes*

This is not about a black or white thing, despite you trying very hard to make it one.
It just the facts. Most criminals people in prison are black, no? Most people who lack an education, by your standards, and who would be excluded from the presidency are black, no?

This is about utilising the money tax payers pay in a productive way for the benefit of all.
Nah. It is about exploitation. I'd say the same thing if they were mostly white people.

I'm not surprised you feel that way.
I'm not surprised you like authoritarianism.
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
No. But, do we only give credit for things that come out of the blue, without cause? Did Mandela not also have a world filled with public notice of the issues around him?

Kennedy was a man of privilege, sheltered from much of what was going on around him. How many, when faced with reality, retreat? Or offer minor changes that don't really help? This was a major departure from what pretty much any other politician of the day would have done, taken on at no small personal risk.

I am not saying that he was some end-all, be-all of administrators. I merely give credit where i think it was due.

If you don't think this deserves credit... well, consider that you get the leadership your own attitudes deserve. If you will not give credit and support when someone does the right thing, why on Earth should anyone with any ideals at all try to serve your country?

And that's all I have to say on the matter.

The problem is Kennedy is one of those presidents who gets altogether too much credit for some of the things he did without people understanding the cynicism and dysfunction within his administration and surrounding his political career. And that's largely because he and his presidency have been romanticized by the tragedy of his assassination. On topics of civil rights, I'm willing to give Johnson a lot more credit because I think he clearly understood what the long term political results would be of some of his key legislation like the Voting Rights Act.
 

Sadras

Legend
It isn't just a question of excluding black people from office. It is about everyone being able to hold office. It is about equality of chance.

Education should be free - that covers your criteria. As for the equality of chance - it is more about connections than it is about a school certificate so please don't spout that it is some kind of filter when it is absolutely not.

Putting arbitrary hoops to jump through excludes a lot of people.

So do you feel that it is arbitrary for nurses and other professions? I mean exactly its not like a nurse needs grade 12 history, geography to do her nursing...
One of the primary reasons it IS important is for languages, you want your nurse as you want your president to be able to speak, comprehend and write in a manner that is befitting someone educated. Although to be fair the 'Bushisms' do a lot to hurt what I'm saying.

Not to mention that it raises the question of who decides what hoops are used.

What is that supposed to mean? National certificate requirement and you are spouting it is some kind of racist agenda. Good god and I thought I liked conspiracy theories.

Physical violence is just not acceptable. It is abuse period. It causes more problems than it solves and is a vicious circle that is hard to break. We still have problems with domestic violence even if it has been outlawed for some time. Sbusing kids just means they'll grow up to be adults who abuse kids. Like the weight of apartheid, domestic violence doesn't go away just with legislative change.

25+ years without corporal punishment and I do not see an improvement but a deterioration in kids. We are dealing with rape, murder and drugs on a hourly basis. Soft touches are just not working.

The right to an education is more important than the cleanliness of inanimate objects.

You do realise there are a number of things one can do, to get fired - all of which pale when I make the statement "The right to work and provide for ones family is more important than x"
And the right to an education after school is not a right - it is a choice. We are talking about varsity kids.

For vandalism?

No, but cheating it way more endemic and a much more common problem than vandalism, yet apparently expelling 1 kid for the throwing of excrement and defacing a statue is more important than the expulsion of 8,000+?

Who are mostly black, no?

Have you looked at the percentages of black people in comparison to other demographics in South Africa. Does this surprise you?

The US aren't a model when it comes to its judicial and penal systems. I'm thinking Norway. *stars in eyes*

Norway is great for Norway and other countries similar to Norway. South Africa is not Norway in too many ways.

It just the facts. Most criminals people in prison are black, no? Most people who lack an education, by your standards, and who would be excluded from the presidency are black, no?

Exactly how many blacks do you think don't finish school these days? I think perhaps you need to do some research. As for our prisoners - we are not talking Canadian hard core crimes like throwing gum on the ground... you do get that right?

Nah. It is about exploitation.

It is about building a better tomorrow with the thugs of today.

Here is a conspiracy theory for you, perhaps you want South Africa to flounder around aimlessly for 100 years or so, blaming Apartheid, when in fact hard changes can be made to rapidly improve the country NOW. But that doesn't serve your purposes because you don't want a successful South Africa because then you cant exploit the black man for a couple more years raping them of their country's diamonds, gold, agriculture...etc like the white man did during Apartheid but in a bad PR sought of way. How does that grab you? It is a little too much of a western ideology for you? Bad Canada, bad, bad...


SHAME! BELL.jpgSHAME! BELL.jpgSHAME! BELL.jpg
 
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Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
Education should be free
I agree.

- that covers your criteria.
Um, no.

As for the equality of chance - it is more about connections than it is about a school certificate so please don't spout that it is some kind of filter when it is absolutely not.
It is true, networking plays a big role in politics, but what I was saying is that your education requirement is a filter that will keep some people out without preventing corruption and incompetence.

You agreed that intelligence and judgement are not always linked with academics. I'll go on a limb and say you think the same about competence and morality. So, what would an education requirement really do, aside from preventing some moral, competent, intelligent people from office?

So do you feel that it is arbitrary for nurses and other professions? I mean exactly its not like a nurse needs grade 12 history, geography to do her nursing...
Your making a false analogy.

One of the primary reasons it IS important is for languages, you want your nurse as you want your president to be able to speak, comprehend and write in a manner that is befitting someone educated. Although to be fair the 'Bushisms' do a lot to hurt what I'm saying.
That is a rather elitist view of who should be in office. As much as it pains me to say it, Bush jr. was smart. Smart enough to know that voters will connect with him if he speaks like them and doesn't sound like a member of the elite (even if he is part of it). I do not have to like this sort of electoral strategy to think it is a legitimate one or that it is legitimate for voters to identify with their representatives in a representative democracy.

What is that supposed to mean?
It means who gets to decide what is the right education needed to become president? The politico-economic elites will want people like it to represent it. So most likely a university degree will be required. That cuts off a lot of people who could make good elected officials, but did not have the socio-economic background to attend university. And it wouldn't garanty that competent morale people would get elected. All it would do is make sure that a certain elite stays in power.

25+ years without corporal punishment and I do not see an improvement but a deterioration in kids. We are dealing with rape, murder and drugs on a hourly basis. Soft touches are just not working.
That is a world view anchored in the strick father model. A child's "sins", to use your vocabulary, is the parents' fault because it didn't enforce violent punishement to correct behavior. That violence is the way to foster civic virtues. It ignores external factors, like say the impact of aparteid, and the problem of domestic violence. But I guess apartheid was just being strick with a population that like children wasn't mature enough to govern itself.

You do realise there are a number of things one can do, to get fired - all of which pale when I make the statement "The right to work and provide for ones family is more important than x"
Again, a false analogy.
And the right to an education after school is not a right - it is a choice. We are talking about varsity kids.
University is education. In a world were automation and low skills jobs are very mobile and do not pay well, university is more than ever a right.

No, but cheating it way more endemic and a much more common problem than vandalism, yet apparently expelling 1 kid for the throwing of excrement and defacing a statue is more important than the expulsion of 8,000+?
Cheating is a problem. It does raise the question of whether memorisation for a test is education at all. But I digress. I'm less familiar with the issue of Chinese plagiarism in the US, but whether is it wrong or right to expel them, I still can critic your proposition to expel vandals in SA. Althought, from what you said there does seem to be elements of free speech in what they did.

Have you looked at the percentages of black people in comparison to other demographics in South Africa. Does this surprise you?
Thanks for demonstrating my point. Also, is the percentage of white prisoner the same as in the general population?

Norway is great for Norway and other countries similar to Norway. South Africa is not Norway in too many ways.
Maybe if it had more policies like Norway it would be more like Norway.

Exactly how many blacks do you think don't finish school these days?
So, black people would be disproportionately affected by your education requirement for the presidency, no?

As for our prisoners - we are not talking Canadian hard core crimes like throwing gum on the ground... you do get that right?
Heh. Ethnic stereotypes aren't arguements.

It is about building a better tomorrow with the thugs of today.
You're not denying it is exploitation. You also do not mind that using prisoners takes away paying jobs for the general population. And, if black people are over represented in prisons, that they would be more exploited in your prefered system.

Here is a conspiracy theory for you, perhaps you want South Africa to flounder around aimlessly for 100 years or so, blaming Apartheid, when in fact hard changes can be made to rapidly improve the country NOW.
Oy.

But that doesn't serve your purposes because you don't want a successful South Africa because then you cant exploit the black man for a couple more years raping them of their country's diamonds, gold, agriculture...etc like the white man did during Apartheid but in a bad PR sought of way. How does that grab you? It is a little too much of a western ideology for you? Bad Canada, bad, bad...
I'm a Québécois who says that Canada fosters discrimination against my nation. Your attack missed its target.

That being said, I agree with you that capitalism is a system based on violence, exploitation and inequality. The problem is that your solutions foster violence, exploitation and inequality.

Ringing bells are synonymous with shame? Is that an Afrikaner meme?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
The problem is Kennedy is one of those presidents who gets altogether too much credit for some of the things he did without people understanding the cynicism and dysfunction within his administration and surrounding his political career.

I know about the cynicism and dysfunction within his administration. There is cynicism and dysfunction within *EVERY* administration. If we require there to be no cynicism or dysfunction for a Presidency to be good, then there's no such thing as a good Presidency. So, I submit these are unavoidable and irrelevant - they are about how the sausage is made, not about whether the sausage is good.

I'm often a practical person - I care mostly about results. So long as they cynicism and dysfunction remain internal to the administration, and the output is actually good for the people, my sweating of the details will be somewhat limited. To be honest, if Kennedy were personally a racist pig, and only put forth the Civil Rights Act for purposes of getting re-elected, I'd still say, hey, we got the CRA! Awesome!
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Okay here is the thing - enough people suffered corporal punishment (including myself) and we all were fine.

Not as many are as "fine" as you might think. Or, perhaps it is better to say, if you are fine now, you might be even better if corporal punishment were not a regular part of your childhood discipline.

A 2009 study defined harsh corporal punishment as at least one spanking a month for more than three years, frequently done with objects such as a belt or paddle. Researchers found children who were regularly spanked had less gray matter in certain areas of the prefrontal cortex that have been linked to depression, addiction and other mental health disorders, the study authors say.

A 2010 study found that frequent spanking when a child was 3 was linked to an increased risk for higher levels of child aggression when the child was 5.

Yet another study: "Harsh physical punishment in the absence of child maltreatment is associated with mood disorders, anxiety disorders, substance abuse/dependence, and personality disorders in a general population sample. "

And, more broadly, it is well-established in behavioral science that use of negative stimulus generally doesn't work the way folks think it does. Yes, the child (or other animal) will stop the undesirable behavior, but not out of *understanding*, which means the application of corporal punishment does not usually generalize to other behaviors, and the fear reaction leaks out into other behaviors instead.

If your dog poops in the house, showing anger and rubbing their nose in it, or swatting them with a rolled-up newspaper are empirically a really ineffective way to house-train them. Why, then, do we figure that swatting a kid will do any better?
 

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