D&D 5E Test of High Level 5E: Design 4 or 5 lvl 13 PCs for 6 to 8 encounter adventuring day

Celtavian said:

I'll finish the cleric tonight if no one else wants to make one. BoldItalic the paladin and wizard. Azurewraith the rogue, hopefully will Sharpshooter and good ranged ability given he can switch hit easily. I'll have a bard and cleric done.

Click to expand...

Great

I've made Bedrock with Int 9, Wis 10 and no mental skills other than History. So he will want to be the party leader (because that's what paladins do) but he knows he has to take advice from the others about the best course of action. He is likely to rely on Edward to do his thinking for him. He knows that if Edward goes down, he's lost his best tactician so he will try to defend Edward if he has a choice to make. Ideally, for that, he should have the protection fighting style rather than defense but he took his fighting style long ago at 2nd level, before he even met Edward, and it will stand him in good stead if he feels his duty is to act as meat shield.

So far, I only know about Bedrock and Edward. When I see the other characters in the party, I will make equivalent connections between them but I won't re-optimize mine retrospectively, just do post hoc rationalization. I think this is a realistic representation of a bunch of random players getting together around a table, but not perhaps a party that has been playing together for a long time and have chosen their level-up options to complement each other cleverly.

meshon said:

I'm glad to see this going ahead, I'm interested to see what comes out of it. I have to say, I thought the hook was fine, given what Celtavian had said earlier about the kinds of PCs he has to put up with.

Keep it up! And I, for one, would love to read the story rather than just the combat simulations even though, I guess, this experiment is mostly about combat simulations...

Click to expand...

I'll try to sneak in some narrative

Edward the Diviner

13th-Level Human Wizard (School of Divination)
Medium Male Humanoid
Armour Class 12 (no armour)
Hit Points 80 (13@ 1d6+2)
Speed 30 feet
Sense Normal
Passive Perception 11
Initiative +2
Str 8 (-1) Dex 14 (+2) Con 14 (+2)
Int 16 (+3) Wis 13 (+1) Cha 12 (+1)
Proficiency Bonus +5
Alignment Chaotic-Neutral
Languages Common, Orc
Background Urchin

FEATURES & TRAITS
City Streets
Ritual Casting - Wizard
Arcane Recovery
Savant (Divination)
Portent (today's rolls are 9 and 14)
Expert Divination
The Third Eye

PROFICIENCIES
Tools: Disguise Kit, Thieves' Tools
Saving Throws: Int, Wis

FEATS
Elemental Adept (Lightning, Fire, and Thunder)

SKILLS
History +8, Investigation +8, Nature +8, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +7

ATTACKS
Quarterstaff +1 +5 To Hit, 1d6 bludgeoning versatile (d8)
Firebolt +9 To Hit, 3d10 fire damage range 120ft, ignore fire resistance, ignore half cover, treat 1's as 2's on damage dice

SPELLCASTING
Magic Ability: Int
Focus: Wand
MAM: +8 (+9 if holding Edward's Quarterstaff of the War Mage +1)
SaveDC: 16
Cantrips: Blade Ward, Control Flames, Fire Bolt, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation
Spell Slots Spells Known: Color Spray, Detect Magic^R, Disguise Self, Earth Tremor, False Life, Grease, Ice Knife, Identify^R, Magic Missile, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Unseen Servant^R, Detect Thoughts^D, Enlarge/Reduce, Locate Object, Mirror Image, Nystul's Magic Aura, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Clairvoyance^D, Magic Circle, Tongues, Arcane Eye, Locate Creature, Contact Other Plane^RD, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Rary's Telepathic Bond^RD, Chain Lightning, True Seeing^D, Delayed Blast Fireball
Spells Prepared: Disguise Self, Earth Tremor, False Life, Ice Knife, Magic Missile, Unseen Servant, Detect Thoughts^D, Enlarge/Reduce, Mirror Image, Nystul's Magic Aura, Clairvoyance^D, Rary's Telepathic Bond^D, Modify Memory, Chain Lightning, True Seeing^D, Delayed Blast Fireball

^R Ritual Spell
^D Expert Divination applies.
n.b. Earth Tremor and Ice Knife are from the EE Player's Companion.

EQUIPMENT (27 lb)
Quarterstaff of the War Mage +1, Spellbook, Magic Focus (Wand), Ring of Evasion, Backpack, Book of Lore, Bottle of Ink, Quill Pen, Sheets of Parchment(10), Small Bag of Sand, Small Knife(2), Map of Grimwood, Pet Mouse, Memento of Parents, Common Clothes, Brass Key, Ivory Knife, Pair of Scissors, True Seeing Ointment(4), Thieves' Tools, 67 gems@100gp, 100gp, A tooth from an unknown beast, Potion of Greater Healing(2), Jewelled Horn and Glass Eye (for the Clairvoyance spell), Myrkyn's Teleport Focus

Quarterstaff of the War Mage +1
As well as being a +1 magic weapon, holding this staff grants a +1 bonus to spell attack rolls and, in addition, you ignore half cover when making the spell attack.

Ring of Evasion (Attuned, 3 charges)
When Edward fails a dexterity saving throw, he can use his reaction to expend one charge to succeed on that saving throw instead.

Myrkyn's Teleport Focus
A crystal the size of a clenched fist. By holding the crystal and expending a spell slot of at least 5th level, the crystal allows the wielder to cast teleport - but only to the teleportation circle programmed. It takes 1 minute to program a new set of co-ordinates into the stone.

PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS
Traits: Edward bluntly says what other people are hinting at or hiding, and he eats like a pig and has bad manners.
Ideal - Aspiration. Edward is going to prove that he is worthy of a better life.
Bond: Edward owes a debt he can never repay to the person who took pity on him.
Flaw: Edward believes that people who can't take care of themselves get what they deserve.
Religion: Edward worships at the temple of Deneir, the NG god of writing, when he is in Grimwood. Followers there are required to eat pickled meats on Wednesdays, to carry a pair of scissors, an ivory knife, and a brass key at all times, and to give one quarter of their wealth to the clergy.

I lurked on the sidelines reading this thread rather surprised that it devolved into what it became. I couldn't keep silent about it.

I was psyched that Flamestrike was using White Plume Mountain, I run my campaign in World of Greyhawk so I was hooked just by the setting. Clearly, he wasn't thinking to much about specific character hooks, the full setting, etc., since this was just an online experiment with a set purpose, with the expectation that the willing participants, would actually willingly participate. Flamestrike went through the trouble of a nice little back story that created a sense of urgency. I've also seen Iserith's work before, and I've an immense appreciation of his DMing skills. I've seen what he's designed before, so seeing that he's involved, and getting a sense of Flamestrike's style, I feel pretty comfortable saying these guys are good, even, excellent DMs.

Rather than reciprocate, the player actually impeded the very purpose of the experiment he agreed to participate in, which makes wonder why go through all the effort of writing up the characters? Much of the rationale for the behavior, having it rest on "that's the character" isn't completely credible. The assertion of "oh, my character can just plane shift if this world ends" suggests a character who is largely paper thin. If characters are meant to portray actual personas that exist in the context of the game world, would they be so completely cavalier? Do they lack friends, family, lovers, their life just exists in the vacuum of "I'm a 13th level, what do I care?" Yes, 13th level characters are potent, but power is relative and finite. They will grow old and when their natural life spans come to end, they will die too; just like the 13th levels that came before them. One might also assume they have other connections in the world beyond "the party."

I understand playing characters filled with ennui; and enjoyed playing a world weary old elf myself; but not by meta-gaming my way out of actually playing the game or having other players play the game. I mean, it's like kids signing up to play a sport, paying money to play the sport, get the gear and then showing up and saying: okay, how are you going to motivate me to play this game? Cause if your motivation isn't good enough, I'm just gonna sit here on the bench."

The fact that they "can't be bothered to write their gold on their character sheet" makes wonder how do they pay for their spell components, food, drink, shelter, materials they need? How do they exist in the context of the setting's economy? Because the common folk who build the houses, work the fields and all that, certainly value gold. Their answer? They're existing in the metagame and not really participating in the actual setting. I suggest taking a peak at the DM's guide regarding downtime for players. Inflict the players with malnutrition, tell them they're out of spell components, and so on. Decide those with pacts are forced to honor "their side of the bargain." Those with divine powers "receive a message from the gods that must be heeded" And if they flip off the divine messenger, tell them their god ceases to grant them their "awesome 13th level divine powers and spells." If they want to exist in the metagame, get them back focusing on playing actual characters in a game world. Player agency shouldn't be acting like they're the stereotypical petulant rich kid, giving the DM a hard time and demanding the DM "entertain him." Have a little respect for the DM as a person, work with the DM to develop a good motivation to participate in the game, otherwise, why the hell show up to play and make characters if you don't want to participate in a common experience? Help make the story, and make it come to life.

In Flamestrike's shoes, I would have had the mage leave, and ask how long do you stay in the tavern, etc. After five hours of meaningless, world-weary ennui, flippancy and snarkiness, I'd inform the players they're instantaneously snuffed from existence. Nope, they can't cast a spell; can't plane shift, since they were caught by surprise. As we know, the DM determines if the players or their foes are surprised.If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. Dead. By the book. And there's nobody who can bring them back, since they're all dead too. Now let's make up new first levels in a new setting. Don't like it, want to rant about "player agency"? By all means, and feel free to take your ball and go home.

Okay, done. I won't post about this again so you guys can launch this thing uninterrupted and I'm longing to see these encounters and just might use them in my own setting! Happy gaming.

This seems like an interesting experiment. If you want a second set of PCs to run the experiment with, let me know what were the agreed-upon rules for creation and what basic archetypes the party should include.

DeanP said:

I lurked on the sidelines reading this thread rather surprised that it devolved into what it became. I couldn't keep silent about it.

I was psyched that Flamestrike was using White Plume Mountain, I run my campaign in World of Greyhawk so I was hooked just by the setting. Clearly, he wasn't thinking to much about specific character hooks, the full setting, etc., since this was just an online experiment with a set purpose, with the expectation that the willing participants, would actually willingly participate. Flamestrike went through the trouble of a nice little back story that created a sense of urgency. I've also seen Iserith's work before, and I've an immense appreciation of his DMing skills. I've seen what he's designed before, so seeing that he's involved, and getting a sense of Flamestrike's style, I feel pretty comfortable saying these guys are good, even, excellent DMs.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words, man. Lurker praise is the highest praise!

iserith said:

I would recommend just posting the encounters one at a time and allow 24 hours for debate. Each debate should include how you'd approach it as a player, how you'd run it as a DM (also how you'd modify the encounter if applicable), and any general comments on how much in the way of resources the PCs would be expected to expend based on how it would be run and played. Math nerds can add calculations as needed. Once the 24-hour mark is hit, we move on and post the next encounter. Repeat until finished. Once finished, we can have a post-mortem of the whole thing and then create an aggregate of responses to determine if the guidelines worked in this particular experiment.

I don't recommend actually playing it out. It will take months.

Click to expand...

Good idea.

Azurewraith said:

That sounds like a good idea

Click to expand...

Celtavian said:

Seconded. This sounds like a good idea.

Then we can have multiple groups take a shot at the encounters and give feedback for how they handle it. We can even discuss group composition to see which groups fare better.

Click to expand...

Sounds like were all on board then.

BoldItalic said:

Can we work it through with the two different parties concurrently? As an in-game race, to add time pressure to both?

Click to expand...

No worries at all mate, if thats what peeps want. In fact it could even be intresting to see how different parties handle it!

Once we have the two part(ies) finalised, I can give you the rest of the background info for the adventure (we can assume you obtain it via arcana, history, religion checks and via discussions with Myrkyn via RP) and then we can kick off.

Currently we have:

• Edward (Paladin)
• Bedrock (Diviner)
• Azurewraiths Rogue

And vacancies for two more PC's. First two PCs I get in get the nod. Celtavian, if you're still keen youre more than welcome to throw a PC ot two in mate.

Azurewraith - the link you sent me to the character didnt work for some reason.

Bold Italic - im fine with both PCs.

• Bedrock has a +1 longsword and a spell guard shield. You've also been lucky enough to read a manual of bodily health on your journeys to date; add +2 to your Con score. He carries 2 potions of greater healing in addition to his standard adventuring gear, and all reasonable costly components for his spells.
• Edward has a staff +1 that also doubles as a wand of the war mage +1, and a ring of evasion. He carries 2 potions of greater healing and all reasonable costly components for spells.

Once I get details of the other three characters, we can get going.

DeanP said:

.The fact that they "can't be bothered to write their gold on their character sheet" makes wonder how do they pay for their spell components, food, drink, shelter, materials they need?

Click to expand...

Now spellcasters that need components do keep careful track of gold. The player that doesn't usually keep track plays a melee or martial character with minimal need for coin. So casters do keep track of coin. Sometimes they stop doing that if they don't find much need. Once they get higher level they are usually crushing most stuff they face and using very specific spells often without a heavy material component cost. Once you have a paladin, bless, and some Inspiration, saves are fairly easy cutting down on costly Greater Restoration spells and other expensive component driven spells. The main casters that use them are arcane casters that want to use summoning spells.

Instead of forcing him to do so as a tedious bookkeeping exercising, I've used a carrot of magic item purchasing to motivate him to keep track of gold. All he cares about is being able to purchase useable magic. Period. End of story. He will not budge on this matter.

How do they exist in the context of the setting's economy?

Click to expand...

A high level character would practically live for free in a lavish style in most places given his skill level finding easy employment as a bodyguard or sage. So a lot of the time its gets hand-waved using the lifestyle rule in the 5E PHB.

If they want to exist in the metagame, get them back focusing on playing actual characters in a game world.

Click to expand...

I have to do this all the time. The role-playing bloom is off the rose as well. They see it as pointlessly interrupting the combat fun they want to have. No one likes to be forced to do something they don't want to do. I can't force them to role-play all the time, though I do sometimes. It does at times get annoying to listen to metagame planning all the time with role-playing hand-waved. 5E has helped this somewhat given it has less of a focus on mechanics.

Player agency shouldn't be acting like they're the stereotypical petulant rich kid, giving the DM a hard time and demanding the DM "entertain him." Have a little respect for the DM as a person, work with the DM to develop a good motivation to participate in the game, otherwise, why the hell show up to play and make characters if you don't want to participate in a common experience? Help make the story, and make it come to life.

Click to expand...

Personally, I would never play with a DM that didn't allow a fairly large amount of metagame planning, though I do prefer in some situations they keep it in character, at least where it is appropriate like to face to face confrontation where discussing plans openly would affect interactions. Metagame planning should be kept to times where the PCs are interacting amongst themselves without it affecting interactions or the interaction has escalated to combat.

In Flamestrike's shoes, I would have had the mage leave, and ask how long do you stay in the tavern, etc.

Click to expand...

You would have had quite a game then. Because once that mage left, the entire group would have went into action doing things on their terms rather than the king's. I was already busy plotting my course of action once the discussion was complete. That's how I always play high level games. High level players are able to do lots of fun stuff. Much of the fun is doing it your way and dictating terms to the world. When you're low level you can't dictate much, but at 13th level you are one of the most powerful people in a nation or even the world. You should be setting the agenda, not having it set for you.

People play this game for different reasons. I understand that. I doubt that outside of the context of this experiment I would play in an encounter of this kind. I would have preferred no role-playing at all, just tactical play focused on overcoming the combat challenges. I don't usually need an artificial time limit to get me moving, since resource conservation is very much how I play. I like to maximize how long I can go as a party wasting very few resources beyond what is necessary to overcome the challenge. In D&D, resource management is an important aspect of tactical play that I enjoy.

Flamestrike said:

Good idea.





Sounds like were all on board then.



No worries at all mate, if thats what peeps want. In fact it could even be intresting to see how different parties handle it!

Once we have the two part(ies) finalised, I can give you the rest of the background info for the adventure (we can assume you obtain it via arcana, history, religion checks and via discussions with Myrkyn via RP) and then we can kick off.

Currently we have:

• Edward (Paladin)
• Bedrock (Diviner)
• Azurewraiths Rogue

And vacancies for two more PC's. First two PCs I get in get the nod. Celtavian, if you're still keen youre more than welcome to throw a PC ot two in mate.

Azurewraith - the link you sent me to the character didnt work for some reason.

Bold Italic - im fine with both PCs.

• Bedrock has a +1 longsword and a spell guard shield. You've also been lucky enough to read a manual of bodily health on your journeys to date; add +2 to your Con score. He carries 2 potions of greater healing in addition to his standard adventuring gear, and all reasonable costly components for his spells.
• Edward has a staff +1 that also doubles as a wand of the war mage +1, and a ring of evasion. He carries 2 potions of greater healing and all reasonable costly components for spells.

Once I get details of the other three characters, we can get going.

Click to expand...

Go ahead and toss in the bard. I'll do the cleric when I get home if no one else has done one.

Celtavian said:

Go ahead and toss in the bard. I'll do the cleric when I get home if no one else has done one.

Click to expand...

What post number is he on again?