Retiring old AL adventures -- good idea or the best idea?

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
In a different thread, I started a discussion on adventure retirement by saying the following:

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I feel the campaign is already on shaky ground by not retiring the Season One adventures prior to this point.

Most Season One adventures don't make narrative sense if run for characters who have already played an adventure from any other season -- Season Two presumes that the dragon has already attacked Phlan and many refugees have made their way to Mulmaster, while Season Three presumes that, after the Fall of Mulmaster, the Phlan refugees migrate toward the city of Hillsfar. The initial Season Four module presumes that the characters are sent by their faction representatives to investigate a threat to their plans to re-take the city.

I could understand managing to fit DDEX 01-11 to -15 into a character's log who also has played one of these other modules, but it simply doesn't make narrative sense for someone who's played, say, DDEX 02-11 Oubliette of Fort Iron to then go back and play DDEX 01-03 Shadow on the Moonsea -- not only does it present Phlan in a state that doesn't exist as of the time of DDEX 02-11, but it presents Elisande, a character the group interacts with in DDEX 02-11, as if the group had never seen her before.

Granted, a good DM can overcome some of these problems, but a good DM shouldn't have to -- the campaign should be presented in such a way that the DM can focus on telling the current story without having to be an expert on every previous season, otherwise it becomes challenging to recruit new DMs who aren't already experts in AL lore. And even more to the point, as AL moves away from the Moonsea and focuses more on adventures in the Sword Coast area, and as more and more convention developers use the Moonsea to develop their own stories, the disconnect between the old AL Moonsea adventures and the current state of both AL and the Moonsea becomes more and more difficult to reconcile.

Lastly, retiring the old adventures allows the rewards used in those adventures to be re-used in newer adventures, as a way of allowing players who didn't get to play the old adventures to still gain certain treasures that were only available in those modules. It also allows the campaign staff to effectively remove problematic treasures from the campaign by not renewing them in new modules, meaning only the oldest characters, who by now are high enough level that new players won't likely interact with them, have those difficult-to-balance-for magical items.

In short, there are lots of good reasons for the campaign to retire older adventures, and some good reasons for the oldest adventures to already be retired. A categorical opposition to adventure retirement seems to me to be a foolish position to hold.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?506055-New-Faction-Rank-Document!/page3#ixzz4SeYbifAE

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The conversation that followed hijacked the original thread, so I've restated my position above and invite folks with an opinion on the topic to continue that discussion here.

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Pauper
 

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Koren n'Rhys

Explorer
Thank you for being willing to civilly continue the discussion on this [MENTION=17607]Pauper[/MENTION]. You are absolutely right - no reason to continue to hijack the other thread. I'm partially playing Devil's Advocate here, to be honest. I DO get to play regularly, and have moved on to more recent content, so to a degree, it doesn't affect me either way. But, I am a bit confused by your insistence that this needs to happen and would like to understand that better.

So...
Very true. I also suspect that, if you took a good look at your con schedule, you'd find that -- say the con is running a three-part series -- the first mod in that series is heavily scheduled on the first day, the second mod is heavily scheduled on the second day, and the third is heavily scheduled on the third day. This is simply out of recognition that most players want to approach content in the order that the designers developed it for maximal story appreciation, and that allowing other 'orderings' is a concession to the realities of convention play, not the preferred mode of convention play.
Wonderful, if I have the ability to attend multiple days. What if I can only get there on Saturday? While the con organizers are very likely doing their best to showcase the current season, chances are there are older mods being run as well. They could look fun and be something I didn't get to play two years ago when it came out. WotC does a great job of tying 6 months worth of varied content into it's current storyline - as they should, but that isn't a reason to pull the older content. It's existence isn't hurting the program in any way.

Absolutely disagree. Players may be willing to accept that, given their circumstances (like rooneg's above), they may not be able to enjoy the full story experience, but given the option, many players will prefer to get both the moment-to-moment play experience and the enjoyment of being in an over-arching serial story.
Of COURSE, given the option they'd play in a regular campaign, but that doesn't mean they can. Some people have to take what they can get and derive maximum enjoyment out of that under the circumstances.

Look at movies -- I wouldn't say people are going to Marvel movies to get 'episodic vignettes', but to get stories that both stand on their own as stories, but that also feed into a larger overall narrative and build the world that all the characters 'live' in. To say you like that in movies but don't want it in your D&D seems weird to me.
Sure, they all tie together, and follow a timeline, but I can watch any one of them at any time, in any order and enjoy the stand-alone story. I watch and rewatch TV shows in syndication. Does it lessen my enjoyment to know that character X is longer in a relationship with Y, or Z is dead in later episodes? Nope. And I can also play along in an older mod and not metagame a similar thing in D&D. I know Han Solo died in Force Awakens, but can still enjoy him in Empire Strikes Back.

I don't see it as a luxury -- I see it as the default setting for AL play. WotC would likely know better than I do, because they actually take surveys and ask their customers these things, but everything I've heard from WotC folks is that most AL players do participate in regular AL games. They're just not required to do so on Wednesday's anymore, since WotC freed up the old Encounters program to run on any day that works for a local group.
This is the problem - for you it ISN'T a luxury, so you don't see it as an issue. Many, many other players have a different reality. What's default for you isn't the same for others. Unless you recognize that, we'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

Here's the thing -- if you have fond memories of Phlan and want to play through the old Season One mods out of a sense of nostalgia, you can do that, even if the adventure is retired from official AL play. The only thing you couldn't do is run the adventure for AL rewards.

And that's the reason to retire the adventures. People who want to play the adventures 'for fun' can play them whenever they want. But if you're going to argue that the main reason to play an AL adventure is for the rewards, then you're really not playing it out of nostalgia or any other 'fun' than the progression of the AL campaign.

Play the old adventures whenever you want. At some point, though, it becomes incumbent on the campaign to retire old adventures to remove them from the 'official' campaign. It doesn't have to happen tomorrow, but eventually it will happen.
I just don't see that as true. Very few are going to run the old stuff, but it won't break anything if they do, so why take them away? It's NOT the "rewards" that matter - it's playing a mod that I and/or my group would enjoy. Do we want to be rewarded for doing so? In the sense of expecting XP, GP and the occasional magic item, then yes, I would like my PC to improve and level as I use him, but is that a "reward" in the way you mean?

AL doesn't have to be a "campaign" for everyone. We can enjoy sitting down and playing random, unrelated mods. At least, I can, if that's all I have time to do, even if it is less than optimal. That's just how I see it - differently than you do.
 

Koren n'Rhys

Explorer
And in response to your original statements up above:
I see 3 paragraphs firmly centered on "the narrative" as your reason. As I've tried to lay out, that may or may not matter to many people who don't mind the disjointed, episodic play and can enjoy a stand-alone session then move on to a completely unrelated one next time.

The final paragraph on rewards, then. Can you give some examples of something that writers can't use as a reward since it's somehow "tied up" in an earlier season? I DO see the reasoning for a specific mod due to an issue with a specific item that turned out to be too broken somehow, or is supposed to be a unique item. But in those cases you could issue a guidance document or revision to solve that specific problem without canning the entire season.
 

rooneg

Adventurer
As I said on the other thread, what is gained (beyond narrative) by removing early seasons from the set of adventures legal to play? I can see some justification if they're giving out too many rewards (lots of XP/Gold, stronger than usual magic items, etc), but beyond that it seems like all it does is reduce the options for DMs and players. If you care about the narrative you don't have to play in those adventures, but for people who aren't concerned about the narrative having them as legal options means they can provide more choices for their players and DMs.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
Wonderful, if I have the ability to attend multiple days. What if I can only get there on Saturday?

So the con organizers should organize the schedule of their con to favor people who can only show up one day in preference to the folks who are showing up every day (and likely paying more to do so), especially if there are more of them?

Sure, it's not great to be in your shoes and the con organizers do want to accommodate you, so they will likely have at least one run of each mod each day, but you have to see that you are not the attendee they're going to organize their schedule around?

It's existence isn't hurting the program in any way.

Please re-read the first post, quoting from my original observation. Each of those points 'hurts' the program. You may not agree, but that doesn't invalidate the observation.

This is the problem - for you it ISN'T a luxury, so you don't see it as an issue. Many, many other players have a different reality. What's default for you isn't the same for others. Unless you recognize that, we'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

My point is simply that the campaign presumes a regular or semi-regular group meeting regularly to play a serial campaign. The adventures stand on their own individually, as episodes of a TV or movie series do, but they also provide an ongoing narrative that is satisfying as well.

What you seem to be arguing is that, because people may choose to watch a TV series 'out of order', it thus makes no difference if the people making the TV series grab continuity from all over their series -- if something that wasn't true in Season 3 but was true in Season 1 gets used in the current episode, simply because 'a lot of people won't have seen Season 3 yet, so won't be bothered by it'. But it's horrible for the people who have, so please don't do that!


Very few are going to run the old stuff, but it won't break anything if they do, so why take them away? It's NOT the "rewards" that matter - it's playing a mod that I and/or my group would enjoy.

Again, you can do that even if the mod is retired -- all 'retirement' means is that you can't draw AL rewards of XP, gold, and other treasure from the module. If playing the mod is your enjoyment, then go right ahead -- retirement doesn't change that.

Do we want to be rewarded for doing so? In the sense of expecting XP, GP and the occasional magic item, then yes, I would like my PC to improve and level as I use him, but is that a "reward" in the way you mean?

See, there's the rub -- you say you want to run the adventure for the 'fun' of it, but the 'fun' would be ruined if you can't add the XP and treasure to your character log. That tells me the 'fun' of the adventure isn't so much in the playing as in the rewards, which is the real reason you'd be running it and the real reason you'd find it 'fun'.

AL doesn't have to be a "campaign" for everyone. We can enjoy sitting down and playing random, unrelated mods. At least, I can, if that's all I have time to do, even if it is less than optimal. That's just how I see it - differently than you do.

You and I can play AL in whatever different ways we want, that's true.

What we're discussing here, though, is how the AL administration should *organize* the campaign, which is not at all the same question. It doesn't hurt your preferred mode of play to retire old adventures (unless you really want the rewards from playing the old adventures, but then again, that's a different question), but it helps the style I participate in -- therefore, retirement should be done.

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Pauper
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
And in response to your original statements up above:
I see 3 paragraphs firmly centered on "the narrative" as your reason. As I've tried to lay out, that may or may not matter to many people who don't mind the disjointed, episodic play and can enjoy a stand-alone session then move on to a completely unrelated one next time.

Sure, but just because some players can enjoy that sort of playstyle doesn't mean that the campaign should be organized so that only those players can enjoy it, from a narrative perspective. The admins strive to provide a narrative through-line for each season; this point seems to be arguing that they shouldn't bother with that.

The final paragraph on rewards, then. Can you give some examples of something that writers can't use as a reward since it's somehow "tied up" in an earlier season? I DO see the reasoning for a specific mod due to an issue with a specific item that turned out to be too broken somehow, or is supposed to be a unique item. But in those cases you could issue a guidance document or revision to solve that specific problem without canning the entire season.

The point was more that certain treasures could be re-used without feeling pointless -- 'oh, man, I already have a headband of intellect from when we ran that Season One adventure last week'. The ability to retire problematic treasures is more something for the admins to decide -- they're the ones who know if a treasure is problematic because they're having to tell all their authors to write adventures taking that item into account.

I don't need to know which treasures are problematic to know that the removal of problematic treasures from the reward pool would be a Good Thing (TM).

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Pauper
 
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Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
As I said on the other thread, what is gained (beyond narrative) by removing early seasons from the set of adventures legal to play?

- Makes DM recruitment/retention easier because DMs don't need to have run previous seasons of AL to be able to run the current material. Also, DMs don't need to adjust adventures for characters who have played later material that contradicts the material in the existing adventure (Elisande, Season 2 Aleyd Burral, etc.)
- Allows for re-use of previous treasures and retirement of problematic treasures.
- Minimizes confusion when announcing changes in award programs (DM awards/player XP by hours played/etc.)

I could understand some concern if we were still early enough in the campaign so that not much material had been released, but at this point there is enough material to support a two-hour per week gaming group through an entire year, not counting the 'evergreen' Lost Mine of Phandelver or the hardcover adventures which remain AL legal. Retiring the first ten adventures of Season One is not going to significantly impact 'options'.

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Pauper
 

RulesJD

First Post
Short version: No

Long version: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Season 1 has probably the tightest and best ran narrative that starts storylines spanning multiple seasons and even a DDAO. It allows for an "open world" approach where after Season 1 players can choose where they go (or even before the end) to either Mulmaster (several hints dropped during Season 1), Hilsfar (your ship approaches just as the city blows up, oh well on to the next city), walking into Storm Kings Thunder, et al.

As for narrative timeline, that's the easiest thing in the world. "Your character drifts off to sleep, encountering a dream state via the Dream spell cast by an otherworldly power that recognizes the threat the players pose to their evil plans. You find yourself reliving your past..." blam. Done.

*********SPOILERS FOR SKT BELOOOOOOW**************
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Hell SKT has you potentially traveling backwards in time to HotDQ Chapter 8, literally before the defining moment that started the sundering of the ordening (Tiamat's defeat without the Giants help) in the first place. If it's good enough for WotC, good enough for me.
 

rooneg

Adventurer
- Makes DM recruitment/retention easier because DMs don't need to have run previous seasons of AL to be able to run the current material. Also, DMs don't need to adjust adventures for characters who have played later material that contradicts the material in the existing adventure (Elisande, Season 2 Aleyd Burral, etc.)

DMs don't have to do any of that right now. I have yet to encounter a single DM who wasn't interested in running AL adventures because they didn't know the plotline of a previous season's adventures. Most people don't seem to care at all.

- Allows for re-use of previous treasures and retirement of problematic treasures.

What prevents them from being reused now? Nothing says we can't have an adventure in season 6 that gives out a headband of intellect just because there was one in season 1. Similarly, retiring a season because of a problematic item doesn't get that item out of circulation. Plenty of people have already played that adventure. If something is bad enough to require removing it then it requires campaign level errata, in which case you can just errata the adventure.

And honestly, if you're worried about power creep your target should be the hardcovers, not the previous seasons of AL content. That's where the really broken magic items are.

- Minimizes confusion when announcing changes in award programs (DM awards/player XP by hours played/etc.)

This is another one I don't understand. Our current system "whatever's written in the adventure is what you use" works fine. If we want to improve on that we can just say something like "any adventure released prior to the release of these rules gives out these awards" in the season's DM's guide. It's a solvable problem.

I could understand some concern if we were still early enough in the campaign so that not much material had been released, but at this point there is enough material to support a two-hour per week gaming group through an entire year, not counting the 'evergreen' Lost Mine of Phandelver or the hardcover adventures which remain AL legal. Retiring the first ten adventures of Season One is not going to significantly impact 'options'.

The concern is that there's no reason to reduce the number of options out there. If someone doesn't want to play in them or run them that's their business, but some of us do, and we want to do it with AL legal characters and AL legal DM rewards.
 

Koren n'Rhys

Explorer
Maybe we're at cross purposes here or something, I don't know. I'm not saying that the AL shouldn't offer new seasons of focused content, and have that content organized so that it follows a coherent narrative for those who want, and have the ability, to play through them in order. They absolutely should, and I agree that it's likely at a majority of players DO play that way. However, that is completely unrelated to the issue of leaving old seasons available to play for those who still want to use them. Since most players won't see the old stuff cropping up, or are in an established group following the current story line, then leaving them open to others doesn't affect them in the least in regards to the continuity of their campaign. The default may be following the current season in order, I really don't know. But regardless, how is that affected in any way by my ability to use old mods if I choose to for my group?

Cons: I don't expect con organizers to cater to the desires of a minority of players at all, but if a DM offers to run a table using older content, what does it hurt to let him? No one is doing anything to "accommodate" me, but rather empowering the DMs who are volunteering their time.

Rewards: C'mon - seriously? If I take the time to play a character, then I expect to get XP and IC "rewards", yes. Sure, I could play for "fun", but how long will it be fun if my PC isn't able to level up? If I like dragons but not drow or vampires, then I'm not allowed to play AL anymore? What if I don't/can't have a home group and my only access to D&D is via AL at my local store? What if I'm in AL because I travel for work and can drop into stores all over the country and still play my character? You seem to be saying that the drop-in player should be unwelcome since he's missing out on the bigger picture - that is, not playing correctly.

Regardless of your observations - in your area, under the favorable conditions you enjoy - that's not the only situation for everyone. The AL isn't set up so that the current season's narrative is all that matters or can be played. In my view, you still haven't offered any evidence that anyone is somehow hurt by my group playing an old mod out of order. Allowing me to do that doesn't hurt YOUR preferred mode of play either, as you are free to ignore those old season in your campaign without needing to retire them
 

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