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D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.

Prism

Explorer
How do doors invalidate recon? It's fairly simple for the scout to open a door. Are you saying all the doors are trapped with magical traps or something and need the rest of the party to dispel them?

It's one thing if the door is a one-way teleportation device, but a regular door shouldn't block recon at all.

Yes it doesn't shut down recon, as most people would listen at the door anyway, but basically as soon as the door is opened the combat might well begin at close range. Now this doesn't bother the hand crossbow build, but for all other archers its not ideal to begin combat within 20' for the nearest opponent. This kind of combat is quite typical for us.

You also have the dilemma of who is next to the door when opened. If the non stealthy party members are near then there is a good chance that the enemy has heard, prepared, sent runners. So it might well be the scout on their own opening the door to face whatever is behind it.

Recon is still useful in planning a close-quarters combat. It's useful to know, for example, where and how many potential combatants are within a building/cave/structure and where to scatter caltrops to inconvenience them and where the best chokepoints are. As has been pointed out several times, ranged PCs are more useful than melee PCs for holding a chokepoint.

It would be pretty unusual for us to be in that much control of an enemies lair. Its usually them controlling the combat flow, retreating, bringing in reinforcements, flanking etc. Wizards and other ranged characters are often open to flanking from behind

A (MM) Balor who teleports directly into melee must necessarily have been within 120' before his teleport occurred. It's one thing for the DM to rule that the Balor wasn't detected because the PCs didn't have detection measures in place; it's another thing for the DM to just fiat the Balor into existence in melee range because his battlegrid is only 30 squares wide and he likes melee combat.

Of course, if the Balor has already been re-statted to be more impressive (Teleport Without Error at will, more HP, better attacks, some nifty spells, maybe some scrying capability, etc.) then the 120' limitation ceases to be a factor. If the Balor knows what he's doing, he will ideally Teleport on top of the party not merely in melee range of the party as a whole, but in melee range of the party wizard at the end of the day when his Mage Armor has expired and he has no Foresight up and he's alone because he's going to the bathroom. (The wizard may or may not have his arcane focus on hand depending on what it is and how paranoid he is.)

Yeah, at higher level the really significant combats are either ambushes (e.g the balor gets gated in by its master), or they are difficult situations to begin with. In one of our recent combats we had to sneak through an army of thousands of devils, in into a 50' square tent to take out the devil general. We were successful getting in but once combat started there wasn't a single round that the ranged guys weren't in melee with some devil or other.

Of course not all combats are like that - far from it - but the really key ones aren't as easy as a bunch of monsters in a group that can be scouted out in advance.
 

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powerfamiliar

First Post
But then repelling blast reads "Target high level monster can't attack next turn".

The best way I've found to discourage kiting or similar strategies is to give the monster a different goal than killing the party. But this only works if the monster has enough defenses to not die by ignoring the party before completing the goal.
 

Satyrn

First Post
Yes it doesn't shut down recon, as most people would listen at the door anyway, but basically as soon as the door is opened the combat might well begin at close range. Now this doesn't bother the hand crossbow build, but for all other archers its not ideal to begin combat within 20' for the nearest opponent. This kind of combat is quite typical for us.
Oh. I was picturing an even more crafty foe.

When I said within vicinity of the door I was thinking of them on a balcony or terrace overlooking it (itself camouflaged from view) and when the door opens they just watch the torchlit room below. And let the scout go a little deeper, through the next door in the room or so. Meanwhile, they alert their superior then just wait until they understand the whole threat - see the whole party, say - before acting further.
 

Crossbow Expert should not cancel disadvantage from firing in melee. It doesn't in my games.

That said, you're often going to be in melee whether you want to or not. You've cut a deal with drow archmage and the forces of the Inverted Tower, and that's bought you a little time to get into the Fane of Lolth and take down the vampire priestess of Kiaransalee. You're low on spell resources, but your hit points are in decent shape and it's now or never. Your scout crawls up the constricting spiderleg tunnel to scout it out, disabling the web-and-fire trap on the way. We'll say you spot the quth-maren hiding behind the pillars in the outer fane. You need to reach the gate to have a chance of IDing the drider vampires guarding the inner fane, and you need to get by them and around the curved wall to spot the vampire priestess in the inner fane. You know they're expecting you. (Ignore the graffiti my whacky players added.)

Nothing wrong with ranged, here, but you better get ready for some melee. And you're not going to "kite" for :):):):).

Fane_Layout.png
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
That's... creepy. I blocked the good Capp and suddenly this thread looks like people arguing against ghosts.

Anyone saying that a melee character can't engage a ranged one within a turn is either starting encounters too far away, or aren't using the dash action. Outside of a few edge cases that is. They could always be fighting on a perfectly flat grassy field which has a magical compulsion that prevents going prone.
 

Yes it doesn't shut down recon, as most people would listen at the door anyway, but basically as soon as the door is opened the combat might well begin at close range. Now this doesn't bother the hand crossbow build, but for all other archers its not ideal to begin combat within 20' for the nearest opponent. This kind of combat is quite typical for us.

You also have the dilemma of who is next to the door when opened. If the non stealthy party members are near then there is a good chance that the enemy has heard, prepared, sent runners. So it might well be the scout on their own opening the door to face whatever is behind it.

It sounds like the reason recon isn't a big thing at your table is because you've never seriously tried it. (But see below.) If an invisible Shadow Monk, or an invisible Sprite, opens a door and there's an bad guy on the other side (e.g. hobgoblin captain), what happens? From what you describe it sounds like your DM would say "roll initiative", but what if the monk or spite just says, "I keep hiding" and moves on? The hobgoblin captain may or may not get spooked into sounding a general alert, but unless your DM is the type who would otherwise have let you catch the hobgoblins unarmored (AC 11), what do you care even if he does? Getting to watch the enemy's procedures when he goes on alert is valuable intel. As long as you survive to get your info back to your buddies (automatic for a Sprite), you're doing your job.

If your DM would let you catch the hobgoblins out of armor then obviously everything changes and you want to sneak in, map the areas where off-duty unarmored hobgoblins are as best you can without alerting anyone, and then go fetch the rest of the party and conduct an entirely assault in less than ten minutes (the time it takes to don heavy armor). So the value of recon goes up, but the costs of being detected go up too.

Of course it also depends on your reasons for invading the hobgoblin lair in the first place. If this is a hostage rescue mission, you obviously don't want to spook the hobgoblins into killing hostages.

It would be pretty unusual for us to be in that much control of an enemies lair. Its usually them controlling the combat flow, retreating, bringing in reinforcements, flanking etc. Wizards and other ranged characters are often open to flanking from behind

That's exactly what happens when you don't do recon, and/or your DM is a Combat As Sport type who denies players the benefit of recon because it makes things "too easy". Either that, or he's a Combat As War DM who's got the difficulty cranked waaaaay up. (Not that I disapprove of high difficulty.) If sneaking through "thousands of devils" to assassinate their leader is a typical mission, then yes, I agree that stealth is at a premium and you really can't afford to give the enemy the slightest warning or they will utterly annihilate you.

Yeah, at higher level the really significant combats are either ambushes (e.g the balor gets gated in by its master), or they are difficult situations to begin with. In one of our recent combats we had to sneak through an army of thousands of devils, in into a 50' square tent to take out the devil general. We were successful getting in but once combat started there wasn't a single round that the ranged guys weren't in melee with some devil or other.

Of course not all combats are like that - far from it - but the really key ones aren't as easy as a bunch of monsters in a group that can be scouted out in advance.

That sounds like a fun scenario. Congratulations on surviving. I bet you've got a reputation with the devils now. :)
 

That's... creepy. I blocked the good Capp and suddenly this thread looks like people arguing against ghosts.

Anyone saying that a melee character can't engage a ranged one within a turn is either starting encounters too far away, or aren't using the dash action. Outside of a few edge cases that is. They could always be fighting on a perfectly flat grassy field which has a magical compulsion that prevents going prone.

I'm guessing you're not the type of person who watches the road ten seconds ahead of you while you're driving, right?
 


Sure I do, I have massive future sight skills.

In all honestly, I have no idea what that means.

Then you are well-accustomed to paying attention to things a thousand feet or more in front of you. Give your players' characters the same credit. "Perfectly flat grassy fields" not required.
 
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