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What happens when... you modify Evards Black Tentaclers using Feats?

I once DM'd a game where I, as the DM, and a player used the warlock version of black tentacles and the warlock version of Dim Door. Holy cow. The battle field was soon littered with so many tentacles that no one could maneuver.

I think the big thing with Black Tentacles is that it's basically an ambush grapple monster. What's your grapple check? The correct answer is "Not high enough".

At least with a lot of the other control spells you either get a save, SR, or can use the spell to your advantage. I may be nauseated in this cloud but you can't find me in it.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Yes, it denies the opponent actions. So does Stinking Cloud (3rd level), Web (2nd level)...Entangle (1st level)

There is a murder's row of nasty action stealers. In particular, RAW, Web and Entangle provoke ability checks that are far too high to be reasonable, and are win buttons just way too often. But, on the other hand, Web and Entangle also allow a save to negate, which Black Tentacles does not. Web can be countered by fire, turning into an area of effect spell that just does 2d4 damage. Black tentacles can't be easily countered except by a dispel, and that's risky if you are in it (concentration check and caster level check have to be made). And Entangle, though perhaps the second most broken (though not breakable) spell in the game (next to Wraithstrike), is mercifully situational. Black Tentacles is just not.

Stinking Cloud requires you to isolate part of the enemy on this side of it. Otherwise, it's better as evasion than battlefield control - separating you from the enemy so you can get the heck out of dodge. But yes, as a DM, also one of my favorite anti-PC spells.

Hold Person works (level varies) and Hold Monster (Level varies, but higher, with a consequently more difficult Save.

The gold standards of 'save or die' spells, but they have the trifecta of weakness - mind-effecting, save to negate, spell-resistance. Yes, they are a potential win button, but they are hard to push through.

Even the Cantrips Daze and Flare rob an opponent of actions...

One for one though.

and Color Spray is the gift that keeps on taking: Unconscious, stunned and blind, in that order.

You have to get on the front line to employ it, and its utility while immense at low level, quickly goes away. Glitterdust is more to the point if you are looking for low level cheese.

Hold Person, Sleep and Deep Slumber are actually death spells, since you can Coup de Gras the opponent, something you can't do with Tentacles.

Sure. Good spells. But again, trifecta of weakness - mind-effecting, save negates, spell resistance - and add on to that that the sleep versions like Color Spray have good utility at low level and then just go way. That's not true of entangle, web, and black tentacles.

And why doesn't Touch AC count as a defense? Last time I looked, Grapples required a successful touch attack before any Grapple checks are rolled.

Read the description again. It says nothing about there being an attack: "Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles."

Don't read too much between the lines. It's confusing you.

But yes, my point is that good spell-casters in 3e mostly seek to dominate the action economy. Monsters tend to have too many hit points and too many defenses to easily burn down, but if you can steal a round or two on them, you can put most down without too much trouble. Black Tentacles is one of the best for doing that.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
Tentacles is a terrible way to deal with the big boys.

First, their BAB/strength/Size make the spell far less effective.

Second, there's remarkably little the rest of the party can do to them while they're on hold. They can't approach within striking distance without getting caught up in the spell's effect.

And though the spell doesn't say it, the fact that someone is inside that field of tentacles suggests at least 20% cover/concealment against ranged attacks. Just the same as if they were in a crowd, with people between them and their attacker.

We had a Warlock in our game (the only thing the player ever wanted to run), and he kept trying to use Tentacles on things like Aboleth, giants, and grapple-masters like a Kraken. Completely ineffective when the other guy is as Large or larger than your "treat it as a Large creature" spell, and laughable against the grapple masters.

But I agree with you, managing the action economy is almost always a winning strategy, and Tentacles does that very nicely.
 

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