D&D 4E D&D Fluff Wars: 4e vs 5e

Imaro said:

That's a subjective question...

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Certainly.

And by no means do I think every 4e answer is great.

But 5e never even asks the question.

The Human Target said:

Certainly.

And by no means do I think every 4e answer is great.

But 5e never even asks the question.

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I'm confused... asks the question of who? Better yet who exactly did 4e ask this question of?

The Human Target said:

Certainly.

And by no means do I think every 4e answer is great.

But 5e never even asks the question.

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I think your arguement is a bit weak.

4E fluff was decent but I thought PoL should have been 4E version of Eberron- a new world divorced from the core books. The fluff changes they made just upset a lot of people for no real gain. Now Nerath is dead and buried and they are undoing most of the changes 4E made to the realms. If Nerath had been more independent I bet there would be a higher chance of seeing it remade.

MechaTarrasque said:

That is a more stringent definition of setting neutral than I think Igwilly was going for. On a scale of 1 to 10 (where 10 is the most neutral), I think this is more of a 3 or 4: no named setting, no maps, no cosmology, no default pantheon, etc., but the Tolkien races are assumed, there are spells, standard classes, ect. still stand.

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Yeah, that's fair; next to 2E, 5E probably hits those about as close.

The Human Target said:

Certainly.

And by no means do I think every 4e answer is great.

But 5e never even asks the question.

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Doesn't it? Pretty sure they did lots of surveys asking those very things,and went with what folks preferred.

(I think it needs saying, again, that PoL wasn't a setting, but a generic suggestion of a setting. The setting wasn't 'Nerath' for instance, Nerath was sketch of a fallen empire that could be placed in the history of any setting you were coming up with, or replaced by simple proper-noun substitution with any Rome-like fallen Empire in some setting's past. Similarly, the setting wasn't the Nentir Vale, the Nentir Vale was just a location that could have been dropped in any stereotypical medieval-Europe-ish fantasy setting.)

Dkamanus said:

Altough, I would like some clarification on points of light and the World Axis comparatively with the Great Wheel and why its better. Tried reading the manual of planes in 4th edition, couldn't find much sense in it.

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The main differences are really in organization. The World Axis is a lot, well, messier. Instead of 4 (6... 8? I forget, exactly) distinct Elemental planes, there's the Elemental Chaos. Instead of exclusive alignment neighborhoods laid out around the hub of the concordant opposition connected by the Astral Plane, there's island-like Domains floating about in the Astral Sea.

The World Axis represents a cosmology shaped by a past cataclysm, the Dawn War. Prior to that, the Divine Domains were connected by something called the Lattice of Heaven, which, in the present, certain gods are trying to re-build (or build something in it's place).

I like to connect the World Axis to the Great Wheel by considering the latter either the Lattice of Heaven or what the Gods ultimately build in it's place - separating the Dawn War cosmology from the Great Wheel cosmology in Time. Though, it's also possible to think of the Great Wheel and codified Elemental Planes merely as an abstract categorization of the messier 'reality' of the World Axis.

Tony Vargas said:

(I think it needs saying, again, that PoL wasn't a setting, but a generic suggestion of a setting. The setting wasn't 'Nerath' for instance, Nerath was sketch of a fallen empire that could be placed in the history of any setting you were coming up with, or replaced by simple proper-noun substitution with any Rome-like fallen Empire in some setting's past. Similarly, the setting wasn't the Nentir Vale, the Nentir Vale was just a location that could have been dropped in any stereotypical medieval-Europe-ish fantasy setting.)

The main differences are really in organization. The World Axis is a lot, well, messier. Instead of 4 (6... 8? I forget, exactly) distinct Elemental planes, there's the Elemental Chaos. Instead of exclusive alignment neighborhoods laid out around the hub of the concordant opposition connected by the Astral Plane, there's island-like Domains floating about in the Astral Sea.

The World Axis represents a cosmology shaped by a past cataclysm, the Dawn War. Prior to that, the Divine Domains were connected by something called the Lattice of Heaven, which, in the present, certain gods are trying to re-build (or build something in it's place. I like to connect the World Axis to the Great Wheel by considering the latter either the Lattice of Heaven or what the Gods ultimately build in it's place - separating the Dawn War cosmology from the Great Wheel cosmology in Time. Though, it's also possible to think of the Great Wheel and codified Elemental Planes merely as an abstract categorization of the messier 'reality' of the World Axis.

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It started off as plug and play building blocks, but like Greyhawk and Mystara before it, it became more in time.

I think if one thing can best describe the Great Wheel, it is probably "mess" once you consider all the permutations, exceptions, factions and what not..

Tony Vargas said:

Instead of 4 (6... 8? I forget, exactly) distinct Elemental planes, there's the Elemental Chaos.

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There are sixteen Elemental Planes under the Great Wheel system: four Primary Elemental (Earth/Air/Water/Fire), four Paraelemental (Magma/Ooze/Smoke/Ice), four Positive Quasielemental (Radiance/Mineral/Lightning/Steam) and four Negative Quasielemental (Vacuum/Dust/Ash/Salt).

And you call the Elemental Chaos, which is one plane, messy by comparison?

QuietBrowser said:

There are sixteen Elemental Planes under the Great Wheel system: four Primary Elemental (Earth/Air/Water/Fire), four Paraelemental (Magma/Ooze/Smoke/Ice), four Positive Quasielemental (Radiance/Mineral/Lightning/Steam) and four Negative Quasielemental (Vacuum/Dust/Ash/Salt).

And you call the Elemental Chaos, which is one plane, messy by comparison?

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Tony meant messy in a good way; less clinical. He's a 4venger of old.

The Byzantine mess of the Great Wheel is easily a huge part of the attraction that makes it the preferred model, incoherence and oversustemization and all.

Parmandur said:

Tony meant messy in a good way; less clinical. He's a 4venger of old.

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I defended 3.x when it was attacked unfairly, and wore my '4venger' badge proudly when doing the same for 4e. Now, sometimes, 5e gets some unfair criticism and I'll step up on it's behalf, too.

But, I'm also OK with recognizing D&D's flaws. I meant 'messy' in a messy way. Mechanically, 4e was quite neat, and was even been accused of 'grid filling' like it was a bad thing, but it's Cosmology, particularly the Astral Sea & Elemental Chaos, well, weren't. The Elemental Chaos was chaotic, and the Astral Sea was all at sea. ;P

I think if one thing can best describe the Great Wheel, it is probably "mess" once you consider all the permutations, exceptions, factions and what not..

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I think 'complex' fits much better than 'mess.' I don't think it's quite fair to counted mythological exceptions - like Loki hanging out in Valhalla - against it, either. He may be there, he doesn't /belong/ there.

QuietBrowser said:

And you call the Elemental Chaos, which is one plane, messy by comparison?

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Yes, a cabinet of many little cubbyholes is tidy (a place for everything/everything in its place), it's contents dumped on the floor are messy.

QuietBrowser said:

There are sixteen Elemental Planes under the Great Wheel system: four Primary Elemental (Earth/Air/Water/Fire), four Paraelemental (Magma/Ooze/Smoke/Ice), four Positive Quasielemental (Radiance/Mineral/Lightning/Steam) and four Negative Quasielemental (Vacuum/Dust/Ash/Salt).

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Aren't the Positive & Negative also Elemental Planes? I seem to recall a diagram of a cube...