D&D 4E D&D Fluff Wars: 4e vs 5e

[dave2008]

More importantly, I like that the fluff in 5E is much more definitive than in 4E, since they ditched the idea that anything can be refluffed into anything else and it's not a big deal.

That was one of my favorite parts of 4e actually. Fortunately, nothing in 5e prevents me from using the 4e fluff.

It's important that a druid or a troll is a very specific thing, and that the fluff is definitively tied to the crunch, rather than saying that any old fluff is fine as long as the crunch is intact.

I disagree. I switch the fluff for many things with each campaign, and mostly do not change the mechanics at all. Sometimes the fluff is not even needed!

Dragons are an example, i change their fluff in almost every campaign, but use the same stat block every time.

 

[dave2008]

The book doesn't even explain the Dawn War, many alignments are just plain wrong, and the World Axis Cosmology has just a few lines about it.

It also doesn't explain the blood war or any other cosmology either as far as I remember.

 

[Parmandur]

It also doesn't explain the blood war or any other cosmology either as far as I remember.

Only light sketches for anything, with plenty of notes that it is just suggestion that the DM can rewrite...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Don't have the book right here, but I remember: Raven Queen (should be N), Sehannine (clearly CN), Tiamat (in 4e is NE), Zehir (perfectly NE instead of CE)... The list goes on.

So, quibbles, really.

The Raven Queen, for instance, could arguably be TN (impartial god of the process of death) or LN (like Kelevmoor) or old-school LN-with-evil tendencies (considering her fairly dark history). 'Unaligned' was potentially complex, that way, so translating it to the 9-alignment system could mean pinning it down a little.

For another instance, 4e CE was more extreme than in other editions, so a CE in a past edition might validly be merely Evil in 4e, but equally validly CE again in 5e.

 

[Aldarc]

Doesn't it? Pretty sure they did lots of surveys asking those very things,and went with what folks preferred.

When thinking of those D&D Next surveys, I'm reminded of the cartoon Gravity Falls where the deuteragonist, Mabel Pines, gives a boy she's crushing on a questionnaire: "Do you like me? a) yes, b) definitely, c) absolutely!!" Sometimes the questions and answers of surveys are framed against being able to express the respondent's sentiments accurately, but are instead designed to cater to the surveyor's own presuppositions.

As someone who enjoys (and studies) ancient religions, I greatly preferred the World Axis (and its mythological narrative) over the Byzantine Great Wheel. The World Axis feels more "organic" and real for my own cosmological sensibilities. I liked having angels of all sorts of different alignments aligned to the different gods. I liked how the gods of different, including opposing, alignments were allied together against the primordials and all have their domains in the celestial realms. I loved the Feywild and the Shadowfell that 4E introduced. This all felt mythical. It felt real. It felt natural. It felt alive. It did not feel gamist, like the Great Wheel often does for my players and me. The Great Wheel being "Byzantine" is not a selling point for me. Quite the reverse, actually. I'm not interested in all the settings of D&D being connected by the Great Wheel. Quite the reverse, actually. I'm not interested in the artificial and superficial alignment system being hardwired into the model of the cosmos. Quite the reverse, actually. And yes, lest I be accused of something I have not said, I also disliked it when the World Axis was shoe-horned into every prior setting.

 

[dave2008]

Don't have the book right here, but I remember: Raven Queen (should be N), Sehannine (clearly CN), Tiamat (in 4e is NE), Zehir (perfectly NE instead of CE)... The list goes on.

I don't know about the other's but Tiamat has been LE since 1e so it is no surprise she went back to that.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I think the idea that the Raven Queen was N came about, because Pharisma being N in PF was such a big deal that it leaked across platforms.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

So, quibbles, really.

The Raven Queen, for instance, could arguably be TN (impartial god of the process of death) or LN (like Kelevmoor) or old-school LN-with-evil tendencies (considering her fairly dark history). 'Unaligned' was potentially complex, that way, so translating it to the 9-alignment system could mean pinning it down a little.

For another instance, 4e CE was more extreme than in other editions, so a CE in a past edition might validly be merely Evil in 4e, but equally validly CE again in 5e.

I second that about CE in 4e. It skewed a lot more towards "burn down the world" then "having fun while doing evil." I think Zehir's bromance with Orcus probably pushed him to CE in the DMG, but I would probably run him as NE (pushing "assassin are an effective choice" to whoever wanted to use them whether LE, NE, CE, or any of the nonevil alignments) myself.

 

[thanson02]

It also doesn't explain the blood war or any other cosmology either as far as I remember.

The DMG doesn't, but there is more information in the Manual of the Planes, The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea, The Plane Below: Secrets of the Elemental Chaos, Underdark (a little, but not much), Player Options: Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, as well as various articles in Dragon and Dungeon Magazine during the 4E era.

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[thanson02]

I second that about CE in 4e. It skewed a lot more towards "burn down the world" then "having fun while doing evil." I think Zehir's bromance with Orcus probably pushed him to CE in the DMG, but I would probably run him as NE (pushing "assassin are an effective choice" to whoever wanted to use them whether LE, NE, CE, or any of the nonevil alignments) myself.

What was nice though is that none of the mechanics were alignment specific. So if as a DM wanted to play one of the bad guys differently in regards to alignment than what was in the book, there was nothing that was going to affect the player end of the mechanics in order to do so.

So much freedom as a DM!!

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