D&D 5E Spells: Hypnotic Pattern, "I Close My Eyes" Says the Caster

cooperjer said:

Why do you suggest that a character closing their eyes may not open them until the start of their next turn?

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So there is a trade off to casting it on yourself. Guaranteed blindness for auto-saved against a stun.

Also, it's similar to basilisks and medusa's.

Also storywise, time does not stop and monsters sit around waiting for you to cast your spell, everyone is still moving and trying to kill eachother. If you close your eyes even for a moment in the middle of battle, that's long enough for an enemy to take advantage of it.

Note there are not many spells this tactic would work on. Hypnotic pattern specifically relies on sight. You can't close your eyes to avoid a fireball for instance.

cooperjer said:

1. The section on Targeting Yourself on P 204 of the PH suggests that a caster may not include themselves as a target in an area of effect. Does this allow the caster to remove themselves from a spell such as Hypnotic Pattern?

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steeldragons said:

Yes. The caster can cast it and not include themselves. Says so, right there, on the tin [or PHB, as the case may be]. You even cite the source.

You are overthinking it.

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Actually the relevant text says that a caster can target himself when a spell allows the caster to choose what creatures a spell should affect. Hypnotic pattern does not offer this option, as such a caster is always affected by hypnotic pattern.

Being able to select a target does not make a caster able to remove a target.

cooperjer said:

I read through the spells to Evards Black Tentacles and found there are a couple key words in the text of the spells to keep track of. There are spells such as Calm Emotions, Circle of Death, and Confusion that do use the word "target" in the text. There are other spells such as Cloud of Daggers, Cloudkill, Conjure Barrage, Conjure Volley, Delayed Blast Fireball, Entangle, and Evard's Black Tentacles that use the words "a creature." Therefore, my initial assumption that each AoE spell targets is false and a spell does indicate if it targets or if it treats each creature equally. Therefore, I would agree that a caster may choose to not target themselves if they target creatures with a spell that has an area of effect.

I find it interesting that Fireball does target creatures, but Delayed Blast Fireball does not target creatures. Therefore, a caster may choose to not target themselves with the Fireball spell, but does not have that choice with the Delayed Blast Fireball spell.

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Fireball targets a point in space, not creatures.

The problem with natural language text is that while the target of a fireball is a point in space, period. The phrase "A target takes" does not mean that the target of the spell was that creature, simply that they are potentially hit by the fireball going off. Words can have multiple meanings ... and while I wish they hadn't used the word target in fireball description they are being targeted in the area of effect.

It's probably explained better in this podcast

The relevant text is

You choose one of the options - in fireball's case it's the point of space you're indicating.

I'd suggest giving the player a choice: "You can either keep your eyes tightly shut until the spell's effect completely dies away, in which case you'll be unaffected by it, but will be considered blinded until the start of your next turn, or else you can close your eyes briefly and try to time it with the spell's effect. If you do that you won't be considered blinded, but you might catch a glimpse of the pattern, so you'll just get advantage on your saving throw."

Regarding closing eyes or averting gaze, you can look at the medusa entry for some guidance:

Unless surprised, a creature can avert its eyes to avoid the saving throw at the start of its turn. If the creature does so, it can't see the medusa until the start of its next turn, when it can avert its eyes again. If the creature looks at the medusa in the meantime, it must immediately make the save.

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Note the effect of averting one's eyes lasts for that creature's entire turn. Of course closing your eyes is a little different than avoiding your gaze. Up to the DM, but I would rule the "blindness" effect from the caster closing his or her eyes would last until the character's next turn.

Oofta said:

Fireball targets a point in space, not creatures.

The problem with natural language text is that while the target of a fireball is a point in space, period. The phrase "A target takes" does not mean that the target of the spell was that creature, simply that they are potentially hit by the fireball going off. Words can have multiple meanings ... and while I wish they hadn't used the word target in fireball description they are being targeted in the area of effect.

It's probably explained better in this podcast

The relevant text is

A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets
to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description
tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a
point of origin for an area of effect​

You choose one of the options - in fireball's case it's the point of space you're indicating.

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Thank you for that link to the podcast. It was a timely pod cast and fairly relevant to the question. The section that I found most applicable was from 21:30 to 25:15. The soft use of the word "target" for area of effect spells and application of the "to whom it may concern..." language may allow a DM to understand that a caster becomes aware of the targets of the spell through this "connection" that Crawford mentions in the pod cast; at which point, the caster can not choose themselves as a target. After all, why would a caster that is sending out a "to whom it may concern..." letter address themselves?

I also agree with the thoughts of [MENTION=6857451]ThePolarBear[/MENTION]. "Being able to select a target does not make a caster able to remove a target." In addition, my sorcerer player brings up a good point about the Wild Sorcerer table and the Fireball centered on self roll. If the caster is capable of not selecting themselves, then this roll is not nearly as traumatic.

In the end, I think I'll add some rules clarifications / house rules that allows casters to not select themselves if the text of a spell with an area of effect specifically uses the word "target" rather the words "a creature." I think this change should make the discussion about the caster closing their eyes before Hypnotic Pattern moot at my table.

Thank you for the ideas and clarifications.

MarkB said:

I'd suggest giving the player a choice: "You can either keep your eyes tightly shut until the spell's effect completely dies away, in which case you'll be unaffected by it, but will be considered blinded until the start of your next turn, or else you can close your eyes briefly and try to time it with the spell's effect. If you do that you won't be considered blinded, but you might catch a glimpse of the pattern, so you'll just get advantage on your saving throw."

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That's how I'd rule it too.

As others have pointed out, I would make being voluntarily blinded a round-long state.

Also I would have the player close his eyes before targeting the spell, and keep them closed until his character opens his again. Which might make targeting the spell fun.

A reminder that Hypnotic Pattern does not actually stick around for a full round. The spell clearly states that it appears for a moment then vanishes, much as a fireball's effect does (flames spread out quickly then next person in initiative goes).

It's a brief flash so the caster can close eyes then open eyes before another creature can take advantage, assuming that another creature had not been waiting with a readied action to attack during the brief flash of light.

The concentration duration is for maintaining the hold on affected creatures after the flash of swirling lights.

I'd let the spellcaster close it's eyes and treat him as blinded until the start of it's next turn as well.


Yan
D&D Playtester