D&D 5E Spells: Hypnotic Pattern, "I Close My Eyes" Says the Caster

[cooperjer]

An interesting idea came up in the game today that I'm not sure how to how to make a final ruling. The player stated he wanted to have his character cast Hypnotic Pattern in an area that included his character. I informed him that his character would also be affected by the spell and offered him a chance to change his declared action. The questions that came up were:

1. The section on Targeting Yourself on P 204 of the PH suggests that a caster may not include themselves as a target in an area of effect. Does this allow the caster to remove themselves from a spell such as Hypnotic Pattern? The table ruling was no, the spell does not target creatures but affects each creature in an area. However, after the game I researched if area of effect spell target creatures in the area and I ran across Calm Emotions and Circle of Death which have the word "Target" in the spell description. I also ran across what seems to be the general consensus that the Fireball spell will hit a caster if the caster is in the area of effect. Is there a clear rule on targeting and area of effect, or am I looking for key words when I should not be?

2. If the caster closes their eyes before casting the spell then they will not be affected by the spell. Since the caster knows precisely when the spell will be released can the caster avoid the save for Hypnotic Patter? The spell Hypnotic Pattern does not state the key phrase "a target you can see." The rules regarding A Clear Path To the Target, PH p 204, suggests that the caster does not need to see the spell target.

Would you allow a caster to cast Hypnotic Pattern on themselves and not be affected by it?

 

[cmad1977]

I would. I would try to impose all the relevant blindness penalties as well.
If it turned out to be a cheesy tactic somewhere I'd revisit the ruling.


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[I'm A Banana]

If the caster's in the area of effect when they cast the spell, generally speaking, they'll be affected by the spell. "I close my eyes" wouldn't be a useful counter in my game - the default is going to be "you need your eyes open to target the spell, and if you close your eyes, you might not be able to create the effect you desire" (you need line of sight and line of effect!). Spellcasting is delicate and precious and if everything isn't just so, it won't go right.

If I was in the mood to yes-but them I might say "Ok, but you have no idea where the spell might go off if you do that." Then use some genadelike missile chart or something to adjudicate where it actually goes off.

If I was being generous, I might even let the tactic work normally, and let the party use it...but also let the enemies employ it. Maybe get real specific with facing ("Oh, this orc wasn't looking at it...").

The simplest solution is just to say, "If you want to cast the spell, you're going to have to look at the point you're going to cast it at, just as an archer would have to look at where they're firing their arrows," and that's probably what I'd go with most of the time. But, there's a lot of space if you'd like to allow it as a tactic.

BTW, when checking the rules for this stuff, note that a targeted spell is distinct from an area of effect spell. A spell is never both. HP is an area of effect spell, so it obeys the rules for that kind of spell, including a point of origin. The spell doesn't have "targets," it just has creatures who are in its area.

 

[mellored]

I would. I would try to impose all the relevant blindness penalties as well.
If it turned out to be a cheesy tactic somewhere I'd revisit the ruling.

Agreed.

The spell specifically says "Each creature in the area who sees the pattern..." so closing your eyes works (the spell also doesn't work against blind creatures).


However, closing your eyes makes you blind until the start of his next turn. Meaning everyone has advantage to attack you.

 

[Oofta]

I would. I would try to impose all the relevant blindness penalties as well.
If it turned out to be a cheesy tactic somewhere I'd revisit the ruling.


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Hit the wrong button ... but I agree. It's a ranged area effect. I would also treat the caster as blind until the start of his next turn since actions are really happening more or less simultaneously. So yes, it's a little cheesy but there's also a cost do doing something like this.

There is no wording in the book to prevent you from targeting an area you cannot see, only that you have to have line of effect unless the spell says otherwise.

 

[Storyteller Hero]

There is no wording in the book to prevent you from targeting an area you cannot see, only that you have to have line of effect unless the spell says otherwise.

Apparently in the PHB on page 204 [Targets] it does state that you can target a point that you can't see, so the wording in the book supports non-sighted targeting of points for area effects.

It's also stated that you CAN target yourself, if you want to, in an area of effect - which means that you can be included in an area of effect; closing your eyes simply means that you are immune to the effect of hypnotic pattern while being targeted as being a creature within the area of effect.

If one wants to role-play it, then it could be the spell caster activating the effect by imagining the space after closing his/her eyes.

Since the hypnotic pattern vanishes after a moment according to its description, unless some enemy had readied an action to attack immediately at the casting of the spell (and resisted the effect of the spell if within its area), there'd be no penalties since the caster can open eyes immediately after casting the spell.

 

[steeldragons]

An interesting idea came up in the game today that I'm not sure how to how to make a final ruling. The player stated he wanted to have his character cast Hypnotic Pattern in an area that included his character. I informed him that his character would also be affected by the spell and offered him a chance to change his declared action. The questions that came up were:

1. The section on Targeting Yourself on P 204 of the PH suggests that a caster may not include themselves as a target in an area of effect. Does this allow the caster to remove themselves from a spell such as Hypnotic Pattern? The table ruling was no, the spell does not target creatures but affects each creature in an area. However, after the game I researched if area of effect spell target creatures in the area and I ran across Calm Emotions and Circle of Death which have the word "Target" in the spell description. I also ran across what seems to be the general consensus that the Fireball spell will hit a caster if the caster is in the area of effect. Is there a clear rule on targeting and area of effect, or am I looking for key words when I should not be?

2. If the caster closes their eyes before casting the spell then they will not be affected by the spell. Since the caster knows precisely when the spell will be released can the caster avoid the save for Hypnotic Patter? The spell Hypnotic Pattern does not state the key phrase "a target you can see." The rules regarding A Clear Path To the Target, PH p 204, suggests that the caster does not need to see the spell target.

Would you allow a caster to cast Hypnotic Pattern on themselves and not be affected by it?

Yes. The caster can cast it and not include themselves. Says so, right there, on the tin [or PHB, as the case may be]. You even cite the source.

You are overthinking it.

 

[cooperjer]

Agreed.

The spell specifically says "Each creature in the area who sees the pattern..." so closing your eyes works (the spell also doesn't work against blind creatures).


However, closing your eyes makes you blind until the start of his next turn. Meaning everyone has advantage to attack you.

Why do you suggest that a character closing their eyes may not open them until the start of their next turn? My initial thought was to follow the guidance written into the MM Basilisk entry which suggest a creature can avert their eyes until the start of their next turn; however reading through it I found that the text adds a sentence at the end of the paragraph that allows a character to look at the basilisk "in the meantime."
[MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION], in my mind you come across as a fairly level headed optimizer with a very good grasp of the rules. If a house rule allowed a caster to close their eyes at the beginning of the spell casting, cast a spell, then open their eyes immediately after completing the spell, what potential options does that lead to? My thought is a potential increase in capability of Bard and Warlock classes. It's clear that capability would change game play, but I don't know if it would be significant in affecting the outcome of an encounter or the fun a player has.

If a rule stated a caster may close their eyes at the beginning of the spell casting and they were then allowed to open their eyes at the beginning of their next turn that would affect: game play, encounter out come, and most likely player fun. It becomes more of a risk vs reward benefit then. Some players find that fun, or in this case the player finds that it clearly indicates Hypnotic Pattern is not meant to include the caster. It then reduces the value of the spell in the players mind.

 

[Oofta]

Obviously closing your eyes to avoid the effects of a spell is totally in DM ruling territory since the book doesn't cover it.

My ruling for being blind until the start of your next turn is that all rounds only last 6 seconds, and while your turn is happening at some instant in that 6 seconds it's all kind of happening simultaneously in the chaotic frenzy of combat. While Bob is casting the spell, the orc that's next in initiative is already starting a swing to take off Bob's head and so on.

Another option would be to give people who close their eyes advantage on the save since I envision some of the magic still getting through your eyelids, much like you can close your eyes to a camera flash going off but you're still going to know it happened.

I don't think there's anything wrong with letting people close their eyes for an instant but it gives the caster a free sculpt spell for everyone, including fellow PCs. "When Bob starts casting hypnotic pattern everybody close your eyes for a moment!"

There's a fine line between rewarding clever solutions and allowing out-and-out cheese. What you allow, and what makes sense for your group is going to vary.

 

[cooperjer]

Yes. The caster can cast it and not include themselves. Says so, right there, on the tin [or PHB, as the case may be]. You even cite the source.

You are overthinking it.

I read through the spells to Evards Black Tentacles and found there are a couple key words in the text of the spells to keep track of. There are spells such as Calm Emotions, Circle of Death, and Confusion that do use the word "target" in the text. There are other spells such as Cloud of Daggers, Cloudkill, Conjure Barrage, Conjure Volley, Delayed Blast Fireball, Entangle, and Evard's Black Tentacles that use the words "a creature." Therefore, my initial assumption that each AoE spell targets is false and a spell does indicate if it targets or if it treats each creature equally. Therefore, I would agree that a caster may choose to not target themselves if they target creatures with a spell that has an area of effect.

I find it interesting that Fireball does target creatures, but Delayed Blast Fireball does not target creatures. Therefore, a caster may choose to not target themselves with the Fireball spell, but does not have that choice with the Delayed Blast Fireball spell.