Martial Practice : Blood Demand

Garthanos · Feb 27, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
Oh, come now @Garthanos! Do you begrudge me totally threadjacking just ONE of your threads?

Teehee

AbdulAlhazred said:
Honestly, I'm not sure what concrete ideas I have there. I turned character build items into narrative currency in HoML, though there's still room for players to be in charge of that, so I guess one COULD do something. In 4e I'm not sure. Do away with the restriction on making stuff of only your level or less? Then PCs could make better stuff by spending more.

Maybe if it were useable for temporary items and not regular ones... There are a few mechanisms for over level (wouldnt one of those expert ritualist/alchemist feats enable it?)

And wouldnt that just encourage ummm saving more?

pemerton · Feb 27, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
Well, of course, because you can ALWAYS beat the ogre, or even if you can't somehow the story will go on in some direction and you'll be in it, assuming you didn't opt to die in the process. The point is, the boots will be there forever once you get them, the potion is just gone and it was in the end a plot device. Why do you have to pay for plot devices?

Now, I think the proper answer is something like what you suggest, that PC goals can be 'bought' in effect by invoking the use of specific consumables, etc. This just further begs the question of why as a player I'm paying. Are gold pieces a plot coupon now? I think we should discuss that! I think if that's what 4e wants maybe it should be a little more overt about it! Maybe it shouldn't try to have them serve 3 purposes (reward, plot coupon, and character upgrade currency).

I think "plot coupon" and PC upgrade are not that distinct in 4e (eg what is a ritual but a plot coupon?, and rituals are part of PC build).

As I've said (about XP at least, and I think also about treasure?), I don't think treasure in 4e really is a reward, despite the chapter heading.

Garthanos · Feb 27, 2017

Blood Demand
"Those of royal blood can truly bend enemies to their service"

level: 4
component cost:1 Healing Surge
Market Cost : 150 karma
Key Skill: Intimidate
Time: 1 minute
Duration: indefinite (perhaps based on quality of roll)

An extension of the Intimidation Influence. This Gift allows one to create a single service involuntary oath. It is a compulsion to do something with actual negative repercussions if you don't follow the demand, these may in fact be as extreme as the intimidation which initiates them. The demanded task can be specified immediately or delayed as a "life debt" which will be called upon and specified later.

An intimidation vs a bloodied enemy may result in an infliction as extreme as eventual death if you fail to follow the oath. This is a power often attributed to Paladins such as Lancelot. A common example of the task being "Travel to Camelot and peacefully offer yourself up for penance to the king and his mercy" - with a tacit you will sicken and die? if you do not.

A Blood Demand creates a situational affliction and requres a successful use of intimidation. (for greatest effect just as intimidation it requires a bloodied target)

By adding the phrase - "The demand can be specified immediately or delayed as a "life debt" which will be specified later." I think that enables flexibility instead of enumerating, while still connecting to legend, although it kind of sublimates the fae warlock flavor.

AbdulAlhazred · Feb 27, 2017

pemerton said:
I think "plot coupon" and PC upgrade are not that distinct in 4e (eg what is a ritual but a plot coupon?, and rituals are part of PC build).

As I've said (about XP at least, and I think also about treasure?), I don't think treasure in 4e really is a reward, despite the chapter heading.

I think we agree on that, treasure doesn't really work as a reward in 4e. It really can't since the DM is obliged to give it out on a fixed schedule. In effect its simply an adjunct of XP, for each XP you get you also get N gp equivalent of treasure drops (I think the ratio is non-linear, but I'd have to go back and research that).

Anyway, so what about 4e having a reward system? I think that would be a nice idea. It certainly would make some styles of play much easier! I know we've touched on "just bend the rules on parcels", which is not a terrible point, but its always nice if there were something built into the game. I mean, nowadays that's kinda moot since 4e is over, but from a perspective of someone analyzing the game and how to design similar games it certainly has some relevance.

AbdulAlhazred · Feb 27, 2017

Garthanos said:
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By adding the phrase - "The demand can be specified immediately or delayed as a "life debt" which will be specified later." I think that enables flexibility instead of enumerating, while still connecting to legend, although it kind of sublimates the fae warlock flavor.

I think it works even for the fae warlock. I mean, oaths and obligations are part and parcel of dealing with these otherworldly beings (same for things like devils).

darkbard · Feb 27, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
I think we agree on that, treasure doesn't really work as a reward in 4e. It really can't since the DM is obliged to give it out on a fixed schedule. In effect its simply an adjunct of XP, for each XP you get you also get N gp equivalent of treasure drops (I think the ratio is non-linear, but I'd have to go back and research that).

Anyway, so what about 4e having a reward system? I think that would be a nice idea. It certainly would make some styles of play much easier! I know we've touched on "just bend the rules on parcels", which is not a terrible point, but its always nice if there were something built into the game. I mean, nowadays that's kinda moot since 4e is over, but from a perspective of someone analyzing the game and how to design similar games it certainly has some relevance.

Couldn't agree with you more. There really should be a separate "silo," distinct from the magic item parcels and economy, for monetary rewards and their use: things like worn jewelry providing social skill bonuses, money spent in research providing some sort of benefit, establishing a stronghold of some type doing the same, social "upkeep" costs and lifestyle choices providing a mechanical benefit of some type, etc. This really needs to be separate from the magic item economy: characters shouldn't have to choose if their characters are dedicating resources to combat or non-combat game elements; they should be enabled to do both.

At the default setting, there really is very little for characters to do with any meaning besides invest in magic items, and that is a bit of a weakness in the system.

A fine topic for a separate thread? [/hint, hint]

Garthanos · Feb 27, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
I think it works even for the fae warlock. I mean, oaths and obligations are part and parcel of dealing with these otherworldly beings (same for things like devils).

Yes the fact that you now have me thinking I need to give this stuff from the Martial types to the magical ones you should be ashamed about.

Garthanos · Mar 4, 2017

How would one actually use this?

You need to keep an arguably hostile enemy detained while you assert authority, explain the demand and fearsome implications of failure, for the casting time,
it might be an initial use of intimidate on a bloodied enemy ( or capture them another way ).

Then this could be a standard use of intimidate with the HS cost.

Just trying to figure out what the most clear systematized descriptions would be.

doctorbadwolf · Mar 4, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
I think 'The King Reborn' is a PERFECT ED. 'Rightful Ruler' would be a decent PP too. Basically King Arthur, you get to pull a 'revelation' and that triggers acquiring the path, and from there you get your leadership bennies and whatnot. I always really hankered for a much more "legendary" sort of feel to these things.

You can have PP/ED like basically 'Black Knight' or 'Green Knight' or whatever. They did have some that do evoke that kind of thing, but a lot of them seem less legend-based and more fiction-based. Then there were those very few EDs that were totally off the wall, like Legendary Thief. That was the most awesome ED ever.

See, this is why I wanted to see some themes that model the idea that you will at some point take a particular ED, or allow you to use the thematic component of an ED in heroic or paragon tier.

I think there was such a theme for the "Heir/King in Exile" from the Neverwinter Campaign Guide, but I would have also liked to see something for Chosen, Demi-God, etc.
to me, destinies are interesting as a thing to look forward to, for me, so I want them to be a feature of low-mid level characters, that they grow into.

I also would love to see levels 20-30 toned down, with EDs as an optional layer that can be added to make the game epic, but that is a whole other thread.

AbdulAlhazred · Mar 5, 2017

doctorbadwolf said:
I also would love to see levels 20-30 toned down, with EDs as an optional layer that can be added to make the game epic, but that is a whole other thread.

Well, I'm not sure what would be special about a 'toned down' Epic, it would be "just a tedious amount more levels of paragon" IMHO.

However, the idea of EDs as an optional "over the top" mode of play for a game that OTHERWISE has just paragon, that makes sense. So PPs basically deliver all their goods by level 16, and then OPTIONALLY 17-20 could include an ED (obviously you'd have to tweak the mechanics a bit, but it would work). HoML could do something like this, as it already labels 17-20 as 'Epic'.

Martial Practice : Blood Demand

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

pemerton

Legend

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

darkbard

Legend

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

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