Nudity, inclusivity and racial representation in RPGs

This makes the book a definite no-buy for me.

I definitely prefer the new art and could see the style fitting along with the rest of my hobby collection, and of course, being able to open the book where minors may potentially see it (the public game store).

+1 to preferring the new art.

Wait, so now all of a sudden they are all wearing bra's and loin cloths?

That is so lame! Way to go on taking the edge off of it, and making it just like any other fantasy art.
Look, if I want my harpies and medusa's wearing silly bra's, and all the gnomes and trolls wearing loin cloths, I can just open up ANY random Monster Manual for any fantasy role playing game on the market today.


(Yes, if there is one thing that succubi worry about, it is about appearing indecent. Fortunately every succubus shops at hottopic, so this really isn't an issue.)

Do Succubi and Harpy's buy bra's? Is there a tailor that makes pants specifically for trolls? Considering the general audience for a role playing game, I think they can handle an exposed boob or two.

I can understand why 4th and 5th edition cut down on the nudity a bit, to make it more appealing to the mainstream audience. But you got our attention with the promise that you'd do a more realistic (and uncensored) take on these fantasy creatures, and then you update your Kickstarter with the announcement that that thing you were going to differently... you are not going to do at all. Well, then why should we still be interested?

Further more, THIS:


-Does not look very good. The perspective is all off, it's not very well drawn as a woman, and the pose is very poor. I don't mean to bash on the hard work of the artist, but this is not up to professional quality. If you compare this to the sort of artwork you'd see in a Pathfinder Bestiary, or even just from amateurs on Deviant Art, it looks inferior. This is not a good drawing. Plus, for something called a Carnal Demon, I think even I can come up with something a little bit more menacing and unique than this. It doesn't look like the artist can draw women very well. Plus she is sitting on her own tail, and seems to have gotten her tongue stuck behind her knee (a tongue I might add, that seems to be made of black flypaper). This is not a good advertisement for your project. By the way, I have no idea how that tail is supposed to work. And is that a pentagram she is sitting on?

Mishihari Lord said:

This makes the book a definite no-buy for me.

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What makes it a no buy for you, the original art or the fact that they dialed it back?

Sounds like you've made your choice. I think it's the wrong one, but go you.

BTW, there is no such thing as being "inclusive". Every choice you make will appeal to one person and turn off another. You have to pick who you want to appeal to and hope they'll give you money. Chasing that holy grail of mass appeal just leads to mediocrity.

EDIT: As an aside, I was looking through the art posted on your Kiskstarter. I really like it. I'm a sucker for black and white pencils...too many decent pencil and ink drawings are ruined these days with mediocre computer coloring (WOTC...). That's some good stuff, and still pretty gruesome.

As long as you don't have lots of characters standing around posing like the Medieval Fashion Catalog in the Player's book like some roleplaying player's guides. You'll be all right.

But seriously, figure out who you want to give you money and make them happy; not every silly person with an opinion about skin tone on the internet.

Salamandyr said:

Sounds like you've made your choice. I think it's the wrong one, but go you.

BTW, there is no such thing as being "inclusive".

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Hey, it's not often I get to see something completely false on the internet.

Oh, wait, no I see it all the time.

Yeah actually there is such a thing as being inclusive, because being inclusive doesn't mean "everyone gets a share" it means attempting to appealing to a wider and more modern audience than the traditional audience. Including people of color, women, people of different builds, less stereotypical NPCs and more diverse backgrounds is typically what this means. Yes, some people will get a bug up their butt about that but including these elements will typically bring in far more people than you lose.

Especially in a hobby that has traditionally catered to an extremely niche group it is not particularly difficult to create material that appeals to a wider audience without losing much of anything.

Imaculata said:

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-Does not look very good. The perspective is all off, it's not very well drawn as a woman, and the pose is very poor. I don't mean to bash on the hard work of the artist, but this is not up to professional quality. If you compare this to the sort of artwork you'd see in a Pathfinder Bestiary, or even just from amateurs on Deviant Art, it looks inferior. This is not a good drawing. Plus, for something called a Carnal Demon, I think even I can come up with something a little bit more menacing and unique than this. It doesn't look like the artist can draw women very well. Plus she is sitting on her own tail, and seems to have gotten her tongue stuck behind her knee (a tongue I might add, that seems to be made of black flypaper). This is not a good advertisement for your project. By the way, I have no idea how that tail is supposed to work. And is that a pentagram she is sitting on?

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That's not her tail. It's a barbed phallus.

shidaku said:

Hey, it's not often I get to see something completely false on the internet.

Oh, wait, no I see it all the time.

Yeah actually there is such a thing as being inclusive, because being inclusive doesn't mean "everyone gets a share"

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Actually, that's exactly what it means-though it would be more accurate to say "everyone's included". In business though, it often makes sense to decide on an audience, and work to appeal to their tastes. This has the unfortunate effect of often turning off those with different tastes, but if you can find a group willing to support your efforts, you can do quite well without pleasing everyone.

it means attempting to appealing to a wider and more modern audience than the traditional audience. Including people of color, women, people of different builds, less stereotypical NPCs and more diverse backgrounds is typically what this means. Yes, some people will get a bug up their butt about that but including these elements will typically bring in far more people than you lose.

Especially in a hobby that has traditionally catered to an extremely niche group it is not particularly difficult to create material that appeals to a wider audience without losing much of anything.

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"wider and more modern"...I wasn't aware men were somehow less modern than women. You appear to have the idea that certain groups have more moral worth than other groups based on sex, skin color, and choice of sex partners. Well, that's on you, but I don't roll that way. All persons have equal moral value; no one's time or life is worth less than another.

Salamandyr said:

Actually, that's exactly what it means-though it would be more accurate to say "everyone's included". In business though, it often makes sense to decide on an audience, and work to appeal to their tastes. This has the unfortunate effect of often turning off those with different tastes, but if you can find a group willing to support your efforts, you can do quite well without pleasing everyone.



"wider and more modern"...I wasn't aware men were somehow less modern than women. You appear to have the idea that certain groups have more moral worth than other groups based on sex, skin color, and choice of sex partners. Well, that's on you, but I don't roll that way. All persons have equal moral value; no one's time or life is worth less than another.

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Yeah I'm done. I'm not going to have any sort of real discussion here with you putting words in my mouth. I really don't have the patience for it.