Nudity, inclusivity and racial representation in RPGs

[Salamandyr]

No, that's not exactly what it means. "Inclusive" in this context is shorthand and has a very specific meaning related to the equalization and correction of minority exclusion and visible representation. It is not the general English usage (like "theory" in scientific terms isn't the general English usage). It seems odd to discover somebody who doesn't know that in 2017, but there you go. That's what it means.

Ah, a motte and bailey argument. I see.

(Yes, I am aware of the "improved" definition of the word; I just don't agree with it; If you wish to make the argument that minorities and/or women were purposefully excluded in the bad old days of gaming, then make that argument, don't hide it under a word) And it's still prejudicing the moral value of some aesthetic choices and persons over others).

 

[Morrus]

Ah, a motte and bailey argument. I see.

(Yes, I am aware of the "improved" definition of the word; I just don't agree with it; If you wish to make the argument that minorities and/or women were purposefully excluded in the bad old days of gaming, then make that argument, don't hide it under a word)

Language doesn't work like that. It doesn't do what you want it to do. Whether or not you "agree" with the current usage of the word is immaterial - that's the conversation taking place, and that's the language being used.

And this is basically a thread hijack into semantics. You know full well what the conversation is about, and what the definition being used is, as you've admitted. So let's not hijack the thread and go back to talking about the inclusiveness policy of Zweihander's art direction.

 

[Salamandyr]

Language doesn't work like that. It doesn't do what you want it to do. Whether or not you "agree" with the current usage of the word is immaterial - that's the conversation taking place, and that's the language being used.

And this is basically a thread hijack into semantics. You know full well what the conversation is about, and what the definition being used is, as you've admitted. So let's not hijack the thread and go back to talking about the inclusiveness policy of Zweihander's art direction.

Suits me; we can agree to disagree on the subject of linguistic drift and whether this is a semantic argument or an debate tactic argument.

I've already stated I think their art looks good. I'd prefer they keep the nudity, keep the violence, and not include the inclusiveness statement (such statements I find condescending and borderline insulting); this will turn off some fans; it will make other fans happy. And that's okay; gaming is for everybody--but not every product can be (can you imagine if they tried to make the 'My Little Pony' game appeal to my tastes as well as to those of its target audience?)

That being said; I'm not a Kickstarter backer, and am only giving feedback because they asked; so my opinion should matter less than those who are supporting them with their dollars. If the customer base is happy, that's really all that matters.

 

[Lylandra]

Thanks everyone for your comments on this issue.

We addressed it directly in our AMA, but I am certain we've managed to realign everything (moving from rated X to rated R).

With that out of the way, I wanted to present the first in a series of pieces that show the sort of inclusiveness we've been talking about. Here's a look at the player races - Ogre, Dwarf, Halfling, Elf, Human and Gnome.

Let me know what you all think!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg/posts/1820798

I like them! They are diverse, they are not just posing, have different visible cultural and occupational backgrounds and they are neither all-beautiful, nor all-ugly. I can also smell a bit of androgynity from some of the PC examples. My favourite is the female ogre on the left, followed by the halfling scholar <3

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

We'd be doing a discredit to our fanbase if we didn't show you the misfortunate 'gentlemen' of a grim & perilous world. Here's a peek at some of the fellas in ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG.

This should give you the full picture of what we mean by inclusiveness - it's portraying a multi-cultural hodgepodge of RPG fans as the characters, as opposed to portraying traditional, 'in-game stereotypes' about elves, dwarves, humans, etc...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg/posts/1820863

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

I can also smell a bit of androgynity from some of the PC examples. My favourite is the female ogre on the left, followed by the halfling scholar <3

Good eye! There's not a single male in the entire halfling line-up.

 

[Salamandyr]

We'd be doing a discredit to our fanbase if we didn't show you the misfortunate 'gentlemen' of a grim & perilous world. Here's a peek at some of the fellas in ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG.

This should give you the full picture of what we mean by inclusiveness - it's portraying a multi-cultural hodgepodge of RPG fans as the characters, as opposed to portraying traditional, 'in-game stereotypes' about elves, dwarves, humans, etc...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grimandperilous/zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg/posts/1820863

Looks really good! I wouldn't mind seeing a few more "badass" men--but definitely approve of your art style; it's a bit too late historical period for what I like, but that fits with Warhammer.

 

[3ArmSally]

I love that you're being gender inclusive! My gaming group is half female and nearly almost all of us have families. Game day is more like game day care. I feel like adding gratuitous nudity is going to subvert the good you're doing though. People who would be wowed by your progressive thinking are going to turn a page and have all their preconceived biases confirmed and go back to thinking "gamers are all lonely men clinging to a sad childhood". If this were a World of Darkness or similar setting I could see it but Warhammer is really made for all ages and has a fair amount of levity wound through it (at least in a lot of previous iterations). You have a good kickstarter and some great art, don't alienate half your potential audience coming out the gate.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

I love that you're being gender inclusive! My gaming group is half female and nearly almost all of us have families. Game day is more like game day care. I feel like adding gratuitous nudity is going to subvert the good you're doing though. People who would be wowed by your progressive thinking are going to turn a page and have all their preconceived biases confirmed and go back to thinking "gamers are all lonely men clinging to a sad childhood". If this were a World of Darkness or similar setting I could see it but Warhammer is really made for all ages and has a fair amount of levity wound through it (at least in a lot of previous iterations). You have a good kickstarter and some great art, don't alienate half your potential audience coming out the gate.

Great feedback!

During our recent AMA, I made a statement about why all the naughty bits, and a follow-up on inclusivity:

https://youtu.be/9kkGc0FB_NA?t=5070

1:24:32 to 1:27 (3 minutes long)

 

[3ArmSally]

I understand your vision and I respect what you're trying to do. I'm just saying that you're leaving money on the table in the form of every book that gets returned or never purchased because of nudity. If it's limited to harpies and lamia you're probably good to go, all the classic paintings of those creature did the same thing and that's not gratuitous. I just hate seeing an artist get caught up in their vision and fail to reach the people it was created for in the first place.

On a humorous and not intended to be mean note: I watched your video and if they aren't from America they aren't African American, they're just African.

Best of luck!