D&D 5E Some slightly fiddly combat rules questions

ThePolarBear said:

What if Jeral could cast Shield, in your example? I mean, rolling initiative first gives the possibility to use reactions after the turn has passed if the character "acts first". Just asking if it ever came up and how did/would you solve it. I mean, you still roll initiative (possibly starting long before the actual situation happens - using a set of pre-rolled results, prehaps, to mantain the tension) but how would you convey such a possibility?

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I've tried to solve it, and came to a " you hear the sound of a crossbow snapping" as the point where the situation halts and initiative is rolled. If the party is already suprised - and that has been determined beforehand - i've found that this solves the narration problem and frees me of 5 rolls used, letting the players still have a bit of tension and the moment of the "huzzah!" if rolling high, because they know they might be able to do something useful to help anyway.

Not that full blown ambushes are that common nowadays in my game, sadly.

Edit: Before any possible post, possibly: Yeah, i've been stumped at seeing that shield does not require seeing the attack to be able to protect oneself. Nor do reaction require to see the source. It is... eeeh.

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corwyn77 said:

I don't see how that really makes a difference unless there are PCs that are not surprised. Jeral can't cast Shield in the above example because he will be surprised in that first round so he can't take Reactions. Assuming all of the PCs are surprised, all the ambushers can make their attacks, then roll initiative, then proceed. I don't see it playing out differently than rolling init, then rolling surprisers attacks, then proceeding to the next turn.

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Shiroiken said:

Oh, and yes "Readied" is a Reaction which in general does interrupt and happen before the trigger (such as moving out of reach triggering an Attack of Opportunity).

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Flamestrike said:

Is there a reason why you can't narrate the attack, then call for initiative and then resolve the attack? It would be ridiculous to ask the players to roll for initiative without the DM giving them any information as to what they're reacting against.

'As you step into the room you hear the twang of a bowstring from the darkness to the north. You're surprised, roll initiative.'

'As you walk along the Forest Trail a hail of arrows thud into to the ground around you, coming from all around. you're surprised, roll initiative.'

'As you walk down the corridor you feel something invisible brush past you, and can hear the whooshing of a blade arcing through the air. You're surprised, roll initiative.'

'As you explore the room the bellowing of an ogre comes from the east and the large beast emerges from its place of hiding... and comes charging towards you. Youre surprised, roll initiative.'

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ad_hoc said:

You can take reactions once you have had your first turn.

So if you are surprised but you win initiative you can cast Shield against an attack that hits you on that first round.

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Sword of Spirit said:

I suppose I don't see where it is less immersive.

The issue is more that this:

"As the party creeps down the corridor, Jeral feels a sudden pain, as a crossbow bolt blooms from his right shoulder. Roll Initiative."

is more immersive for the players than

"As the party creeps down the corridor...Roll Initiative. <Set up initiative order>. Jeral feels a sudden pain, as a crossbow bolt blooms from his right shoulder."

No mechanical difference, but it adds to the experience to not be told that a surprise attack is coming before it happens. This isn't really a problem for my group, because I have no problem making hidden rolls for the PCs when it adds to the play experience. I'd just roll everyone's initiative in secret myself and then narrate the first way. But for DMs who aren't comfortable making players' rolls for them, I get the impression that there is a trend of not using the current initiative rules, and just using a surprise round or such in order to avoid narrating the second way..

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Sword of Spirit said:

The issue is more that this:

"As the party creeps down the corridor, Jeral feels a sudden pain, as a crossbow bolt blooms from his right shoulder. Roll Initiative."

is more immersive for the players than

"As the party creeps down the corridor...Roll Initiative. <Set up initiative order>. Jeral feels a sudden pain, as a crossbow bolt blooms from his right shoulder."

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Greenstone.Walker said:

"As the party creeps down the corridor, they hear the click of a crossbow firing. <Roll initiative.> Jeral is not quite quick enough to react, and the crossbow strikes him in the shoulder."

Allowing things to hit before initiative really, really, really overpowers assassin rogues with crossbows.

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corwyn77 said:

You mean by giving them the auto-crit they are entitled to when they surprise an opponent?

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ad_hoc said:

I suppose I don't see where it is less immersive.

If anything it adds more tension to the scene.

It might even be more immersive too since it brings the characters into the scene. So rather than just being told that they were shot, you get all the moments leading up to it; the shooter popping up, the arrow/bolt in flight, etc.

In your example I would be losing interest. It just feels like I'm being told a story rather than being an active contributor to the story. If the game itself is breaking immersion then maybe it's the wrong format for you.

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You hear the twang of a crossbow to the north... roll initiative. Everyone rolls and the DM records the numbers.

Right.. Bob, Matt and Fred you all surprised, so none of you can act on turn one. Bob you go first, but as I said you are surprised and can take no actions. Next comes the enemy Orc with the crossbow who just fired. Bob he was aiming at you... And he was hidden when he fired the crossbow so he has advantage. What's your armour class? Rolls dice. That's a hit Bob.. What's that... you want to cast shield? Okay fair enough you already have had your turn so you can just manage to take a reaction in time to stop the arrow with your Shield spell. Cross off the spell slot.

Matt and Fred you are both surprised, so you miss your turn one. Bob its now round 2 and it's your turn - You see an orc standing 30 feet away from you furiously reloading his crossbow. What do you want to do?

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