D&D 5E Some slightly fiddly combat rules questions

[FrogReaver]

Red Herring!

 

[GMMichael]

. . . outside of little confusions like this I love the 5e system...

Makes you wonder if there are systems without little confusions, doesn't it?

Not very fair on the players. Player, "Don't I get a roll?" GM, "No, because she fires first, before initiative."

Rolling initiative before any attacks are resolved gives the players a chance. Perhaps their character heard the twang of the bow. Perhaps they saw the incoming bolt. Perhaps they had a hunch or a feeling. Perhaps they just got lucky.

Wait, why exactly should a character have a chance to dodge an arrow, fired by a high-dex sharpshooting rogue, when that character is standing next to a bright, noisy fire?

It's not rolling initiative that gives PCs a chance. It's hit points. Hit points are what say "no, that expertly fired, poison-tipped arrow that probably hit you in the throat or lung didn't kill you. You're welcome."

 

[ThePolarBear]

So you are saying that a creature could both see and be blinded at the same time?

These are the rules. They're clear cut.

You can't be one thing and not that thing. It is the law of identity.

I think FrogReaver is saying that while the effects of surprise specifically state that you can't take actions on your first turn and you can only take reactions after your first turn has passed does not mean that you are no longer surprised. You might still be considered surprised until the end of the first round, for example, with no mechanical difference for the creature being surprised but with a substantial difference for a Rogue - Assassin. You could be even surprised for the whole fight, that does not mean that the effect of surprise would change!

How you play it and how i play it and how (i think) FrogReaver plays it is the same. It's just not specified to be meant to be this way and we might all be wrong since it's not written. Btw, surprise is not a condition and unlike "hidden" it's not stated to end "on your first attack" or any other kind of situation.

 

[the Jester]

You can't ready an action outside of combat. Getting the jump on someone is what initiative is for.

 

[Ovinomancer]

If you allow attacks before initiative, then the following can occur.

Let's say an 8th level Assassin Rogue is stalking the party. She closes on them at night, where she can see the character on watch, silhouetted against the low fire. She is a skilled archer, with an excellent DEX score and the Sharshooter feat. From 300 feet away, she aims her light crossbow at the on-watch character and fires (at least +8 Attack Bonus, at advantage). If she hits, she does 2d8+8d6+5 damage (average 47). If that hasn't killed the on-watch character, she can slip away with repeated uses of Dash.

Not very fair on the players. Player, "Don't I get a roll?" GM, "No, because she fires first, before initiative."

Rolling initiative before any attacks are resolved gives the players a chance. Perhaps their character heard the twang of the bow. Perhaps they saw the incoming bolt. Perhaps they had a hunch or a feeling. Perhaps they just got lucky.

Well, no, because at anything more than 80', the assassin is at disadvantage for range. Cancels the advantage, so no sneak attack.

If the party lets this happen more than twice, they deserve it.

But, all that said, I meant allowing the surprise attack to be narrated before determining initiative for the following round, not 'attack without initiative, then surprise round initiative, then normal.' Clearly, that's bad. But 'has surprise, no one in party is aware, narrate surprise round attack, roll initiative as normal for following rounds' doesn't dramatically overpower the assassin sub-class at all.

Personally, I rule the assassinate ability to be viable in the first entire round of combat. So, if the assassin surprised the target(s), they get to do an auto-crit whenever they go in initiative for the first (surprise) round. They did the work to set up the ambush and they still have to hit, I see no reason why they also need to win initiative.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Well, no, because at anything more than 80', the assassin is at disadvantage for range.

Sharpshooter feat.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Sharpshooter feat.

Sure, now. Although, at this point, it's sounds more like a dick DM rather than an issue with the ruling.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Although, at this point, it's sounds more like a dick DM rather than an issue with the ruling.

Usually, the "why can't I act before initiative" comes up in the context of players wanting to get the drop on foes. I explain it the other way around, to show that if the rules allow characters to do something then the rules also allow monsters to do it to the players.

THis particular discussion is one I have seen at the table. I was the GM when a player complained that his assasinate attempt failed because I rolled higher initiative for the target. When I turned it around, the player got upset. Apparantly its OK for a character to kill a monster without rolling initiative, but it is unfair the other way around.

So now, when answering any "what if" rules question, I explain it in terms of, "If we make this rule then this is how it affects your characters. Are you OK with this?"

 

[Ovinomancer]

Usually, the "why can't I act before initiative" comes up in the context of players wanting to get the drop on foes. I explain it the other way around, to show that if the rules allow characters to do something then the rules also allow monsters to do it to the players.

THis particular discussion is one I have seen at the table. I was the GM when a player complained that his assasinate attempt failed because I rolled higher initiative for the target. When I turned it around, the player got upset. Apparantly its OK for a character to kill a monster without rolling initiative, but it is unfair the other way around.

So now, when answering any "what if" rules question, I explain it in terms of, "If we make this rule then this is how it affects your characters. Are you OK with this?"

Yeah, still think you missed my clarification. If you get surprise because the other side can't see you, and no one on the surprised side is allowed to act in the surprise round, I see no issue narrating the events of the surprise round and then rolling initiative for the first round of (non-surprise) combat. It's functionally no different from rolling initiative and proceeding that way -- literally makes no difference. You can't react to things you don't see coming anyway, so even beating the initiative of the other party doesn't mean you have any meaningful actions to take. Unless there's an assassin, which I've already mentioned the stupid triple gate to that ability -- if you care about it, fine. I don't, and let the assassin assassinate throughout the surprise round anyway.

So, for your camp guard example, if you just narrate the surprise round, it doesn't change anything. The assassin shoots, the guard is hit (or not), and then you roll initiative. If the guard wins, great, he can run some 60' towards the assassin before the assassin hides in the darkness and runs off. If he loses, he doesn't run 60' before the assassin hides and runs off. Essentially, the 'in the dark, sharpshooting assassin' is just a dick move and has nothing to do with when you roll initiative. It's not very telling, as it sucks whether you roll initiative or not.

 

[Caliban]

Yeah, still think you missed my clarification. If you get surprise because the other side can't see you, and no one on the surprised side is allowed to act in the surprise round, I see no issue narrating the events of the surprise round and then rolling initiative for the first round of (non-surprise) combat. It's functionally no different from rolling initiative and proceeding that way -- literally makes no difference. You can't react to things you don't see coming anyway, so even beating the initiative of the other party doesn't mean you have any meaningful actions to take. Unless there's an assassin, which I've already mentioned the stupid triple gate to that ability -- if you care about it, fine. I don't, and let the assassin assassinate throughout the surprise round anyway.

So, for your camp guard example, if you just narrate the surprise round, it doesn't change anything. The assassin shoots, the guard is hit (or not), and then you roll initiative. If the guard wins, great, he can run some 60' towards the assassin before the assassin hides in the darkness and runs off. If he loses, he doesn't run 60' before the assassin hides and runs off. Essentially, the 'in the dark, sharpshooting assassin' is just a dick move and has nothing to do with when you roll initiative. It's not very telling, as it sucks whether you roll initiative or not.

You can't take Opportunity Attacks against unseen creatures, but that doesn't mean you can't react at all to unseen attackers.

For example - the Shield spell. The casting time for the spell is "1 reaction, which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell."

You don't have to see the attack coming to react and cast the spell.

If you are surprised and your initiative hasn't come up yet, then you can't take a reaction to cast shield, but if your initiative has come up then you can react (to cast shield) even against an unseen attacker.

Absorb Elements would be another reaction you can take even against an unseen attacker during the surprise round.

There may be others, but those are the two I can think of off the top of my head.