D&D 5E Some slightly fiddly combat rules questions

[Shiroiken]

This is inaccurate.

Passive and Active refers to the player not the character.

Passive simply means that the player does not do anything. Active means the player makes a roll.

Whether or not the character is being passive or active doesn't impact whether there is a passive or active check.

Technically true, but the DM is the one who determine when and what type of check. As a DM, I almost always use Passive when the character is not taking an action. I'd being doing it this way for so long, I'd forgotten there are other options.

 

[ad_hoc]

Technically true, but the DM is the one who determine when and what type of check. As a DM, I almost always use Passive when the character is not taking an action. I'd being doing it this way for so long, I'd forgotten there are other options.

Yeah, that is why this was my answer to the question:

"Up to you. In that case I would probably have them roll vs passive stealth because it's more fun for the player."

The 2 examples used in the PHB on why you would use passive checks are to represent a repeated task or for secrecy.

I like to use them in opposed rolls so that a high roll from the player usually wins. It's not fun to roll an 18 only to be thwarted because the NPC rolled a 20. Similarly if you roll a 5 and still win it feels a little weird.

I also use them in a group situation similar to the repeated task example so that many rolls don't trivilize the challenge. Perception vs Stealth is the most common example of this.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Can you provide an example where this is a problem?

In my experience it plays out like this:

Enemies have surprised you, everyone roll initiative. Okay, the enemies do what they do.

It just plays out like regular combat. It's just that it takes longer to get to the character's turns. Sometimes enemies will get 2 attacks in before any character has a chance to do anything.

If a character beats the enemy's initiative then you can just tell the player they have reactions available to whatever it is the enemy is doing.

The only time it becomes tricky is with the Alert feat. In that case they can sometimes get a turn before enemies have done anything. This is still fine, as they likely won't be able to do much. They will likely either search for the enemies or take a defense posture, both things that are in line with someone who is exceptionally alert.

The issue is more that this:

"As the party creeps down the corridor, Jeral feels a sudden pain, as a crossbow bolt blooms from his right shoulder. Roll Initiative."

is more immersive for the players than

"As the party creeps down the corridor...Roll Initiative. <Set up initiative order>. Jeral feels a sudden pain, as a crossbow bolt blooms from his right shoulder."

No mechanical difference, but it adds to the experience to not be told that a surprise attack is coming before it happens. This isn't really a problem for my group, because I have no problem making hidden rolls for the PCs when it adds to the play experience. I'd just roll everyone's initiative in secret myself and then narrate the first way. But for DMs who aren't comfortable making players' rolls for them, I get the impression that there is a trend of not using the current initiative rules, and just using a surprise round or such in order to avoid narrating the second way.

 

[ad_hoc]

The issue is more that this:

"As the party creeps down the corridor, Jeral feels a sudden pain, as a crossbow bolt blooms from his right shoulder. Roll Initiative."

is more immersive for the players than

"As the party creeps down the corridor...Roll Initiative. <Set up initiative order>. Jeral feels a sudden pain, as a crossbow bolt blooms from his right shoulder."

No mechanical difference, but it adds to the experience to not be told that a surprise attack is coming before it happens. This isn't really a problem for my group, because I have no problem making hidden rolls for the PCs when it adds to the play experience. I'd just roll everyone's initiative in secret myself and then narrate the first way. But for DMs who aren't comfortable making players' rolls for them, I get the impression that there is a trend of not using the current initiative rules, and just using a surprise round or such in order to avoid narrating the second way.

I suppose I don't see where it is less immersive.

If anything it adds more tension to the scene.

It might even be more immersive too since it brings the characters into the scene. So rather than just being told that they were shot, you get all the moments leading up to it; the shooter popping up, the arrow/bolt in flight, etc.

In your example I would be losing interest. It just feels like I'm being told a story rather than being an active contributor to the story. If the game itself is breaking immersion then maybe it's the wrong format for you.

 

[Satyrn]

If it were me . . .

You're new to DMing, too, I believe, right? You seem to have a good grasp on it. Nice advice!

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I suppose I don't see where it is less immersive.

If anything it adds more tension to the scene.

It might even be more immersive too since it brings the characters into the scene. So rather than just being told that they were shot, you get all the moments leading up to it; the shooter popping up, the arrow/bolt in flight, etc.

In your example I would be losing interest. It just feels like I'm being told a story rather than being an active contributor to the story. If the game itself is breaking immersion then maybe it's the wrong format for you.

I prefer to stay in character as much as possible, so being confronted unnecessarily (as in, the DM can do it for me with no change in results) with mechanics doesn't really fit my preferences.

 

[ad_hoc]

I prefer to stay in character as much as possible, so being confronted unnecessarily (as in, the DM can do it for me with no change in results) with mechanics doesn't really fit my preferences.

That sounds like an exercise in futility to me.

I would rather just read a book or watch a movie if that is what I'm going for.

 

[ThePolarBear]

The issue is more that this:

"As the party creeps down the corridor, Jeral feels a sudden pain, as a crossbow bolt blooms from his right shoulder. Roll Initiative."

is more immersive for the players than

"As the party creeps down the corridor...Roll Initiative. <Set up initiative order>. Jeral feels a sudden pain, as a crossbow bolt blooms from his right shoulder."

No mechanical difference, but it adds to the experience to not be told that a surprise attack is coming before it happens. This isn't really a problem for my group, because I have no problem making hidden rolls for the PCs when it adds to the play experience. I'd just roll everyone's initiative in secret myself and then narrate the first way. But for DMs who aren't comfortable making players' rolls for them, I get the impression that there is a trend of not using the current initiative rules, and just using a surprise round or such in order to avoid narrating the second way.

What if Jeral could cast Shield, in your example? I mean, rolling initiative first gives the possibility to use reactions after the turn has passed if the character "acts first". Just asking if it ever came up and how did/would you solve it. I mean, you still roll initiative (possibly starting long before the actual situation happens - using a set of pre-rolled results, prehaps, to mantain the tension) but how would you convey such a possibility?

I've tried to solve it, and came to a " you hear the sound of a crossbow snapping" as the point where the situation halts and initiative is rolled. If the party is already suprised - and that has been determined beforehand - i've found that this solves the narration problem and frees me of 5 rolls used, letting the players still have a bit of tension and the moment of the "huzzah!" if rolling high, because they know they might be able to do something useful to help anyway.

Not that full blown ambushes are that common nowadays in my game, sadly.

Edit: Before any possible post, possibly: Yeah, i've been stumped at seeing that shield does not require seeing the attack to be able to protect oneself. Nor do reaction require to see the source. It is... eeeh.

 

[Flamestrike]

The surprise rules generally work pretty well, but they do have the drawback of announcing to your players that combat has begun (ie, asking for initiative) before narrating the first hidden enemy's attack, which can be an unsatisfying situation. I recommend rolling initiative for your players yourself in such situations, that way you don't have to let them know a surprise attack is coming until the attack happens. If you do so, make sure you are aware of any reactions that characters who beat enemy initiative might have available that could interrupt the attacks, so that you can avoid narrating preventable results.

The other drawback is that players and DMs coming from prior editions are almost always surprised by and unaware of the surprise rules.

Is there a reason why you can't narrate the attack, then call for initiative and then resolve the attack? It would be ridiculous to ask the players to roll for initiative without the DM giving them any information as to what they're reacting against.

'As you step into the room you hear the twang of a bowstring from the darkness to the north. You're surprised, roll initiative.'

'As you walk along the Forest Trail a hail of arrows thud into to the ground around you, coming from all around. you're surprised, roll initiative.'

'As you walk down the corridor you feel something invisible brush past you, and can hear the whooshing of a blade arcing through the air. You're surprised, roll initiative.'

'As you explore the room the bellowing of an ogre comes from the east and the large beast emerges from its place of hiding... and comes charging towards you. Youre surprised, roll initiative.'

 

[robus]

Is there a reason why you can't narrate the attack, then call for initiative and then resolve the attack? It would be ridiculous to ask the players to roll for initiative without the DM giving them any information as to what they're reacting against.

'As you step into the room you hear the twang of a bowstring from the darkness to the north. You're surprised, roll initiative.'

'As you walk along the Forest Trail a hail of arrows thud into to the ground around you, coming from all around. you're surprised, roll initiative.'

'As you walk down the corridor you feel something invisible brush past you, and can hear the whooshing of a blade arcing through the air. You're surprised, roll initiative.'

'As you explore the room the bellowing of an ogre comes from the east and the large beast emerges from its place of hiding... and comes charging towards you. Youre surprised, roll initiative.'

That's how I handled the goblin ambush at the start of LMoP. Arrows thudded into the cart near the characters and initiative was rolled.