How many age categories should dragons have?

How many age categories should dragons have?

  • 8

    Votes: 8 22.9%
  • 10

    Votes: 2 5.7%
  • 12

    Votes: 7 20.0%
  • I've got a super idea that I want to tell you about.

    Votes: 18 51.4%

Mercurius

Legend
The key, in my view, is balancing between setting-specific fluff and playability as expressed through the rules. Start by thinking in terms of how you want dragons to be in your world, the campaign that you're going to run, then adapt the rules to fit that.

By way of example, I like the idea that dragons are essentially immortal and keep growing, yet at the same time can become decrepit. I think dragons get to a final stage, say ancient, but it is sort of like black belt - there are different levels of it. Maybe this shows up in extra hit points, damage, etc, depending upon age beyond a base level ancient. Maybe decrepitude is a kind of a spiritual/existential disease that some ancient dragons get if they become corrupt, lazy, nihilistic, etc, and leads to physical and mental decline.

I also like the idea that dragons start as essentially wild animals until they reach sexual maturity, then they realize their "I". In fact, each stage could be marked by a kind of threshold - this would allow the stages to be rationalized within the world and not just be a meta-game concept.

As far as stages go, I like the approach of as few as possible while still offering a range. Maybe something like this:
hatchling/wyrmling - until a dragon is autonomous
young/juvenile - essentially childhood, dragon is still wild and animalistic
adult/mature - dragon becomes I-centered, sexually mature
elder/old - perhaps some other threshold is reached, maybe psychic connection with other dragons
ancient - another threshold, perhaps some greater power (with possible decrepitude)

I honestly don't see why more than five are necessary, with the caveat that ancient is open-ended and in a way many stages. But beyond ancient, growth is very small.

Finally, I would add a further pseudo-stage: that of the Great Wyrm, which is merely the oldest, most powerful of any dragon type, and revered, respected and feared by all dragons. So there is one Great Red Wyrm, one Great Silver Wyrm, etc, who is essentially a kind of god-king or god-queen. Maybe the Great Wyrms meet every hundred years...
 

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Vaprak001

First Post
I'd expand upon Mercurius' theme of thresholds, which seems more organic than a simple dragon birthday 'boost-up'. What people haven't really considered so far in this thread are the historic events that would shape the development of dragons.

In my homebrew 1E world I had the almost obligatory cataclysm that separated ancient and modern times (with a Dark Ages in the middle) and was using two addition dragon ages (Cataclysm, Pre-Cataclysm) before 2E even came out. This became necessary as the party I was DM'ing needed ever-greater challenges. Transplanted to the FR, and using the 3E Campaign Setting (and Mercurius) I would have something like:

"1. hatchling/wyrmling - until a dragon is autonomous
2. young/juvenile - essentially childhood, dragon is still wild and animalistic
3. adult/mature - dragon becomes I-centered, sexually mature"
4. elder/ Old -
(Post 902 Dale Reckoning/ up to c.480 yo) Threshold marked by the creation of the first Draco-liches by the Cult of the Dragon. Many young-old evil dragons accepted to undergo the process creating a "missing generation" with demographic consequences for size and magical ability
Wyrms (genetically bigger, wide range of magic)
5. Venerable (-339 to 902 DR) Threshold marked by the Fall of Netheril. Dragons born in the aftermath of Netheril had an easier time of things! Poor organisation and the plundering of civilisation meant easy pickings. Dragons of this age are physically more powerful than younger dragons but lack the sheer magical power of older ones. Perhaps the last of the truly great dragons?
6. Ancient (-7,790 to -339 DR) Threshold marked by the rise of the great human civilisations. Ancient dragons were forced into the wilder areas of the world, reinforcing the scale and power differences between the various dragon races (especially that of the evil dragons). This time also marked the evolution of magic, driven by the Nether scrolls which encouraged ever greater experimentation by dragons with their sorcery.
Great Wyrms (genetically the biggest of their kind, individuals with unique magic and powers)
7. Legendary (-11,700 to -7,790 DR) Threshold bounded by the rise of Tethir, the first Elven dragonslayer and Calim's final dragon pogrom. Dragons born to this age truly are the most spectacular physical specimens of their kind and grew up exposed to magic in it's infancy. These dragons may have unique spell capability.
8. Mythical (Pre -11,700 DR) These dragons literally ruled the world (like dinosaurs once ruled ours). The most powerful of the 'creator races', surviving specimens are of almost godlike scale, intelligence and power. They are also extremely individual and quirky, with atypical powers (some of which may be failing) and moral outlook for their race. Indeed their original race is somewhat obscured, for instance 'red' dragons of this age could range from almost black to light orange in colour - that is if there are any left! In game terms these dragons should never be met randomly and be almost impossible to kill. Although I don't agree with Mercurius that there should be one of each race, the slaying of any one of these dragons should have global repercussions. Maybe the slaying of one caused the Flight of Dragons in 1356DR?

So the quick answer - 8 categories! Thanks
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
For the purposes of playing D&D?

3.

Adolescent/"Young" [large] -generally territorial, dangerous, impulsive, more active/roaming (looking to establish a lair). Big/old enough to put up a fight.
Adult/"Mature" [huge] -more "settled," generally more intelligent/thoughtful, comfortable/secure in the lands/territory they command, established lair and horde with multiple minions (and/or worshipers) and/or elaborate defenses, maybe magical. The gold standard of deadly encounter.
Ancient (or Elder or Old or Legendary) [what's bigger than huge?] -better hope you don't find one of these (or cross it)...ever, walking (and flying) destruction, commands primordial forces no mortal can hope to achieve. Not likely to venture far from its lair or horde for any but its own unknowable reasons nor comply or serve any "master" but themselves.

No one ever sees (let alone fights) "baby" dragons or has seen one in untold ages. Tales/legends of small child-like dragons or finding dragon eggs exist, but no one could ever say this has happened in the known histories of men. No one really knows why, though theories of sages abound.
 

ElectricDragon

Explorer
I seem to remember a Spelljammer suppliment where a planet housed the most ancient dragons who could become Air Dragons and then their age categories increased beyond the initial 12 up to 24. Never thought that feasible; or maybe it was dragon heaven?
 

Illithidbix

Explorer
Like many others have found, 4E and 5E four age categories work very well.
It means that you can have them fully statted out, and both 4E and 5E managed fairly consistently to fit the four stat blocks across two pages and include a picture.

Four age categories for the 5 core chromatics and 5 core metallics (which admittedly 4E tried to redefine) gives 40 usable monsters straight from the books, instead of 80-120 that you mostly had to partially create yourself, and those feats, skills and spells could take some time.
You also end up with many very monsters with very similar stats (an issue I noticed somewhat with 5E's 40 dragons)

Now personally I prefer 4E's "Young, Adult, Elder, Ancient" to 5E's "Wyrmling, Young, Adult, Ancient" – the gap between “Elder” and “Ancient” works in my head

The guidelines for my envisioned actual categories are a tad mash up of 3E, 4E and 5E,

Young: Large, - a big flying rhino in size. Roughly 5-100 years old.

Adult: Huge, - An elephant or T-Rex with wings. Roughly 100-500 years old.

Elder Gargantuan – A sauropod or blue whale with wings, Over 500 years old.

Ancient – REALLY GARGANTUAN! Colossal if 3E Competing with the Kraken and Tarrasque, simply bigger than any dinosaur or whale. - Millennia old, from a different aeon, perhaps transcending from limitations of physicality and the equals of demigods.

From a CR point of view, I would like the weakest of the Young Dragons (White?) to be a serious threat but defeatable for a party of 2nd-3rd level characters.

BUT WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHIL-WYRMLINGS!
So of course, I somewhat lie because 4E introduced stats for all kinds of Wyrmlings in both the (excellent) Draconomicons, as did Monster Manual 3 for the Catastrophic Dragons, creating the 5th age category that carried into 5E.

I remain a tad unconvinced every dragon type needs to have a separately stated wyrmling/hatchling.

Whilst wyrmlings might well be encountered in a dragon’s lair, I don’t see them as primarily a combat challenge.

I also found that certainly 5E’s stats for wyrmlings tended to be very, very similar. 4E had a little more latitude in having them Elites along with the different monster roles and special powers that edition emphasised, but it still was somewhat stretched.
I personally feel that there could just be a single stat block with tweaks for it’s breath weapon and damage/immunities based upon their type.

*(I am also a little unconvinced between the difference in power between a CR 2 White Dragon Wyrmling and a CR 4 Red Dragon Wyrmling, but that might just be dubious eyeballing by me)
 
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ElectricDragon

Explorer
8. Mythical (Pre -11,700 DR) These dragons literally ruled the world (like dinosaurs once ruled ours). The most powerful of the 'creator races', surviving specimens are of almost godlike scale, intelligence and power. They are also extremely individual and quirky, with atypical powers (some of which may be failing) and moral outlook for their race. Indeed their original race is somewhat obscured, for instance 'red' dragons of this age could range from almost black to light orange in colour - that is if there are any left! In game terms these dragons should never be met randomly and be almost impossible to kill. Although I don't agree with Mercurius that there should be one of each race, the slaying of any one of these dragons should have global repercussions. Maybe the slaying of one caused the Flight of Dragons in 1356DR?

I have a category of dragons called "Elder Dragons." Not an age category, more a power-level category. The method of gaining this category requires great age and something special. Different for each dragon.

From my campaign, Jonical:
"An elder dragon is a type of wyrm that predates written history and even most oral histories. There are whispers of legends that tell that they have always existed, even before the creation of the world. Early history of the world suggests that dragons ruled all. Nothing could stand against them. Sages today name these ruling creatures "elder dragons". Some few of them survive from that distant time, more powerful than any other dragons alive today. Most of the surviving elder dragons attempted godhood and entered the ranks of deities. These elder dragons do have some worshippers of lesser (non-dragon) species; but only one, as far as is known, has dragon worshippers and he requires that they be undead.

Worshipping is different for dragonkind. For dragons, it is a minor act of heart rather than a major act of spirit. In which case, maybe many dragons worship elder dragons in their own private way, much less obvious than for other species. Possibly all that is truly necessary is to have an icon of that elder dragon deity among the other jewels of their hoard.

Each elder dragon is unique and focuses on an area of expertise, some type of knowledge, an element, or a force. Some sages speculate that many more elder dragons than are mentioned by Kerthan the Historian could well exist. They are an insular species as a whole (certain elder dragons are exceptions to this) and usually find out-of-the-way places to inhabit.

Some elder dragons are insubstantial in some way (ethereal, shadowy, gaseous, astral, dream, wind, etc.), but not all are. What is not known about elder dragons could fill the libraries of all the major cities of the whole world, and many are the “facts” supposedly known about them that simply are not true.

Most gods and goddesses treat elder dragons with respect, thereby giving them the status of a near-equal, even if they have no deific rank. While elder dragons could work for powerful deities in various duties, only one is known to do so. A pitifully small number of elder dragons have actually joined the ranks of the gods.

Elder dragons have all of the racial charactistics of true dragons whom they most resemble, but most have changed or added to their racial abilities and modified their appearance. Ancient fractured tales tell of how elder dragons were once normal true dragons until something unique happened to them or they did something strange and unexpected. There is no way to substantiate any of these tales; or to infer that all elder dragons were once normal true dragons; as even their racial charactistics have changed over the eons that each elder dragon has been alive: through active magical experimentation, divine morphing, and even through adaptation to a novel environment."

I have 12 such dragons in my campaign and it is unknown what type of dragons they formerly were; though there are speculations and stories, half-forgotten legends and such.

BTW, I am currently looking for a publisher, artists, layout artist, etc. in order to publish this material. If anyone is interested.
 
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Answer: Three

The first size category is baby dragon. This is a cute or mischievous creature whose job is to appeal to younger kids and provide amusement or an extended relationship as a pet. The stats for this level are optional, but are more focused on rearing, escaping, getting into trouble and being cute. I run for a group of young kids in my church, and this is the most important age category for them.

The second category is adult dragon. This is a generally antagonist monster that the players might run across and are likely to fight more often than not. They are stat'ed out variously with different levels. You can call them "slightly older than mature adult but not yet venerable", or whatever, but it's basically just levels. They are monsters for the players to deal with.

The third category is godlike dragons. These are icons in 13th Age, or gods in D&D; the Bahumets and the Great Gold Wyrms. They are more powerful than all but high epic PCs and are generally not direct antagonists. Their stats revolve around what influence they have and how they can change the world.

So, for a simple campaign frame: The Great Gold Wyrm has untrusted you with the upbringing of his youngest egg, to ensure it understands what the world is really like outside of heaven. You must show him the real world for a decade and a day, keeping him safe but not shying away from adversity. You can depend on the clerics and powers of the GGW to aid you, but the forces of Tiamat (a variety of evil adult dragons) are likely to assail you.
 

Illithidbix

Explorer
The first size category is baby dragon. This is a cute or mischievous creature whose job is to appeal to younger kids and provide amusement or an extended relationship as a pet. The stats for this level are optional, but are more focused on rearing, escaping, getting into trouble and being cute. I run for a group of young kids in my church, and this is the most important age category for them.

I'm going to pretend that when I said "Whilst wyrmlings might well be encountered in a dragon’s lair, I don’t see them as primarily a combat challenge." I meant exactly as salient point as this >>
But thinking about it, the adorable baby dragon is something I've come across in games I've played before.
 
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