How many age categories should dragons have?

How many age categories should dragons have?

  • 8

    Votes: 8 22.9%
  • 10

    Votes: 2 5.7%
  • 12

    Votes: 7 20.0%
  • I've got a super idea that I want to tell you about.

    Votes: 18 51.4%

Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
D&D 3.x Monster Manual had pretty much the same table and the AD&D 2e one, except Hatchling is renamed Wyrmling in 3.x, and Venerable is called Ancient instead.

D&D 4e Monster Manual had four age categories: Young, Adult, Elder, and Ancient, but wyrmlings/hatchlings are mentioned in the text in a general way. It is also implied that wyrmlings are "relatively small and weak."

There does not appear to be a chart with specific years-to-age-category.
 

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ccs

41st lv DM
Size catagories: Small, medium, large, huge, & collosal?/gargantuan? (Whatever it's called)

Age catagories: 5 sounds like too few. So ten? (2 per size catagory)

However you break it down it needs to accommodate my minis - wich range from small bases up to that collossal red with the removable fire breath WoTC made back in 3.5
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Interesting. I hadn't given much thought to making all five of the iconic dragon species the same size, and while I can see some merit to the idea, it works against so much history of the game that I don't think I will go that way. I'm not entirely sure why the different dragon species were divided by size...
Who knows why D&D's conventional dragons turned out the way they did, right? I often imagine early game writers rolling dice to determine things like number of hit dice, age categories, spell levels, etc.. ;) So much of tradition is inconsistent and arbitrary, which is a big part of why I've no interest in its latest iteration. *shrug*
 

S'mon

Legend
Classic has small-large-huge dragons; 4e has young/adult/elder/ancient, 5e has young/adult/ancient (+wyrmling); those all seem to work well. I'd say 3 + wyrmling works best, call it 4. 8+ is too many.
 


Teemu

Hero
4 or 5 is enough. Wyrmling for the smallest, and mechanically they should be simpler than the others. Young for the lower level parties. Adult for mid-level parties. Ancient or Wyrm for high-level and/or epic characters.
 

The option I prefer most today is 13th Age's three categories: medium, large and huge. The game doesn't automatically posit that these are related to aging, and it leaves it open to the DM's need for his campaign.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I confess to being a bit surprised about the outcome of the polling thus far. The majority appear to want 5 categories, roughly speaking: small, medium, large, huge and gargantuan. Some want just 4 categories, leaving off the small 'hatchling' category as uninteresting. Some even want 3 categories, typically dropping out either the medium or the large category as well.

Looking at my current work, and imagining cutting back to 3-5 categories, the big problem that I see is the gap in challenge gets really large.

ccs expressed this problem the best when he wrote: "However you break it down it needs to accommodate my minis - which range from small bases up to that colossal red with the removable fire breath WoTC made back in 3.5"

When you get to the tangibles of dragons, small, medium, large, huge, gargantuan, and colossal are all real things of very noticeable difference in size. Looking at my own work thus far, the low end of the range is a reasonable challenge for a 3rd level party, and a difficult challenge for a 1st level party. The high end is a reasonable challenge for a 16th level party, and a difficult challenge for a 14th level party. Fitting just one or two intermediary categories into that means very large gaps in the challenge rating. I'm not seeing that the added complexity of another category adds more problems than the gaps do, at least when the amount of information required to build and record a category is very small.

Consider the process of converting my work to 4e. The 'hatchling' category represents CR 1. The largest most legendary dragon represents CR 30. To get to 5 categories, its only necessary to put one dragon at the midway point of each tier - CR 5, CR 15, CR 25. But look at those gaps now between CR 5 and CR 15, and between CR 15 and CR 25. I'd argue that it's pretty obvious even 4e needs 7 categories to have any sort of smooth progression. To argue otherwise feels like arguing to me that PC's only need 3 or 5 levels to represent play. Why then do they have 30?

The recording of age category in 1e is very small indeed. It mostly means recording that the hit points per dice are equal to the age category, plus some special powers (like awe) that depend on having age category. The problem IMO is that this convenient means of recording doesn't record enough information (well, technically it's complete, but it results in simplifications that are bizarre). 2e tried to fix this, but in my opinion the 2e version went too far the other way. Recording age category in 2e and 3e requires a relatively large amount of information. In 4e, stat blocks are very disconnected and very large. There is a lot of cost in adding a stat block, and 4e very much deprecates the idea of flexible blocks (stat blocks that are implied or tabulated by the DM) in favor of showing all the rules together. The literal cost of adding age categories to a manual is high, as it eats a page or more. But that doesn't mean say 7 categories wouldn't be useful or that the granularity between them would be trivial.

In short, this thread has achieved for me it's primary goal - proving that on the whole, most people wouldn't object to fewer than 12 age categories. My feelings haven't really changed though, that depending on edition, 6-10 age categories have value in the context of that edition. Some in this thread seem to prefer the low end of that spectrum. I tend to lean to the high end of that spectrum. To convince me to adopt the low end of the spectrum, you'd need to convince me that objections like, "You already have a large and a gargantuan option, so you have no need for a huge dragon.", or "You already have a CR 8 and a CR 12 option, so you have no need for a CR 10 option.", are very valid objections.

The goal of my project can be thought of as this. Most monsters did not require major redesign between 1e and 3e. There are clear parallels between the stat blocks of most monsters in their 1e, 2e, and 3e versions. To a lesser extent, this is also true of the 1e and 5e stat blocks. Had 1e dragons been designed correctly in the first place, there would have been no need for 2e's large refactoring, and we'd see a clear parallel between the 1e, 2e, and 3e versions as well.
 
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Teemu

Hero
Consider the process of converting my work to 4e. The 'hatchling' category represents CR 1. The largest most legendary dragon represents CR 30. To get to 5 categories, its only necessary to put one dragon at the midway point of each tier - CR 5, CR 15, CR 25. But look at those gaps now between CR 5 and CR 15, and between CR 15 and CR 25. I'd argue that it's pretty obvious even 4e needs 7 categories to have any sort of smooth progression. To argue otherwise feels like arguing to me that PC's only need 3 or 5 levels to represent play. Why then do they have 30?

Don't forget that you have different dragon types to cover CR bands within the tiers. Non-hatchling whites to reds at the lowest levels could range from CR 4 to 10 for example. Mid tier dragons could cover, say, CR 12 to 20 with just the five iconic chromatics.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Don't forget that you have different dragon types to cover CR bands within the tiers. Non-hatchling whites to reds at the lowest levels could range from CR 4 to 10 for example. Mid tier dragons could cover, say, CR 12 to 20 with just the five iconic chromatics.

I'm fairly sure this or something quite like it was actually done.

But I also think you need to back up and look at someone else's complaints in this thread to understand why I think that is not necessarily a solution. In fact, I'd guess that the holes in 4e only really exist because 4e didn't last long enough as an economically viable product to make publishing dragon stat blocks to fill the gaps worthwhile.

Tequila Sunrise observed:
I've never liked how different dragon types have a clear statistical concordance, within each age category. Reds rule, blues are cool, greens clean, blacks lack, whites drool. I suppose from a DM perspective it makes it more likely you can find a just-so level/CR dragon, assuming you can get the party to the appropriate terrain type -- but it just offends my sense of symmetry.

Leaving aside his desire to have more symmetry between dragons (because I also expect some will want less symmetry between dragons), one of the problems of using the different dragons to cover gaps is that it presumes you can get the party to the appropriate terrain type.

Another problem is much more so than the 2e and 3e age categories, you really are implementing 'reds rule... whites drool' when you do this. Compare with the 3e White Dragon in the SRD, that implements a good opponent for basically every level of standard play, and where a Great Wyrm White is on par with a Very Old Red. Indeed, I'd suggest that the 3e Red Dragon is the worse designed, because the top end Red's are pretty absurd and rarely have utility (CR 26, DC 40 to save versus the breath weapon, etc) to most DMs. One of my goals in doing this redesign is to make dragons more usable within the standard framework of play than they are in 2e or 3e.

One of the big complaints against 1e dragons is that they weren't very interesting as solo/boss monsters the way people wanted, which is an early example of what any 4e fan must be acutely aware of - designing solo/boss monsters that are exciting is not easy. Most of the attempts to fix that in the 1e era despite having some good ideas were based on poor math and the often poor state of analysis the pervaded DMing at the time, and in my opinion, second edition also went off down a bad path. Third edition carried on in that direction and compounded the problem. Fourth edition offered one idea of a solution. Fifth edition offers another. My concern however is retro-fixing the history of the game from 1e to 3e.
 
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