D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

When we decide how we do stats, it first comes down to what kind of game. If its a one shot or very short 2 or 3 game sessions, we use the point buy system. It just isn't worth the time to invest in a session zero. Its an easy check to make sure everyone's stats are good to go.

For a longer campaign with more character investment, I prefer a session 0 where we roll stats and get to enjoy the character building process. Someone may have outlined this method, I didn't read all the posts, but we use this: Everyone rolls 4d6, drop the lowest. After each person has their 6 stats, we write the stats on a white board. Everyone is free to choose any one of the sets of 6 stats. This allows everyone to enjoy rolling, but it also equalizes the playing field by making sure no one gets really bad rolls compared to others and feels underpowered the entire campaign. It gives a little variety and lets people make a character according to their vision. Its interesting to see how people choose which stats to use. A fair number use the stats they rolled. Typically most of the stats get used by at least one person.

The one thing I have considered trying, but haven't done yet is to do a campaign with no racial bonuses. I would use a little more powerful rolling method, such as 4d6 drop lowest 7 times, dropping one number, or a point buy with more points. The purpose of this experiment would be to expand the race and class combinations. For example, we don't often see things such as a Gnome druid, or a High Elf barbarian, because the racial bonuses don't support those classes' primary stats. It would help break the typical mold a little more and go with desired flavor over function.

schnee said:

Let's be honest here. I know people that really fight. They don't talk like this - you're using an adolescent power fantasy tough guy cliché straight from anime.

If you've ever punched anyone in your life, I'd bet money it's been calculated - only when you know you can do it without any consequences (i.e. someone three sizes smaller), and never when there's any risk of getting your ass truly kicked.



Gee, I wonder why.

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I was actually being as absurdly silly as the question you posed. A,d I can understand your thinking I'm just a D&D nerd who's never been in a fight in his life, cuz let's face it, most ppl who play D&D wouldn't bust a grape in a fruit fight. Do I really punch people in the face at my tables? No that's just barbaric. Now people who actually saw me might not put it past me to do something like that, but I like to have fun. I don't need the aggravation of people pressing charges, and I having to bail myself out of jail or risk losing my job. My size alone is intimidating enough to make people not want to mess with me on that level. Some people realized it was a joke.

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TwoSix said:

If you don't like rolling, there will be some games that you simply don't want to play in.

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Which is what I said I would do.

TwoSix said:

It's more like not liking seafood. There's nothing wrong, or right, about not liking seafood. But not liking seafood simply means there will be some things you don't eat.

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I don't care if you have a different preference. Personally I hate sushi and like broccoli.

It's the same as when people tell me "you just haven't had good sushi". Ummm, no. I've tried sushi multiple times. It's still just raw fish with green colored horse radish (in the US, you almost never get real wasabi even in fancy restaurants).

What bugs me is that sooner or later several of the "roll for stats" posts get rather condescending. "Suck it up like a big boy" is just one of several examples.

A while back I thought it would be fun to have an all-dwarf campaign. Some people didn't want to do that so I changed the campaign. Had I insisted that everyone must play a dwarf, I would have lost a player or two. Instead I changed my campaign idea to allow for flexibility and to accommodate my players.

I never would have told them "you have to suck it up like a big boy and play a dwarf".

Oofta said:

What bugs me is that sooner or later several of the "roll for stats" posts get rather condescending. "Suck it up like a big boy" is just one of several examples.

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I totally agree the posters who think their personal stat generation method is better overall rather than better for their preferences are the worst offenders here.

neogod22 said:

Why force players to play either what their stats tell them they can play, or be inadequate in what they want to do if the rolls don't support their class?

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Because that's what we had to do back in the day, and we were glad for it!

Now get off my lawn drought-tolerant CA-native landscaping! ::swings cane about vaguely::

Hussar said:

See, I really don't get the point of die rolling the character stats.

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It's a game-within-the-game, and 'winning' gives you an advantage in the rest of the game.

Assuming it's roll-in-order, it goads you to play a character you might not otherwise choose.

It's tradition....

neogod22 said:

Why force players to play either what their stats tell them they can play, or be inadequate in what they want to do if the rolls don't support their class?

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Because that's what we had to do back in the day, and we were glad for it!

Now get off my lawn drought-tolerant CA-native landscaping! ::swings cane about vaguely::



::gets a sense of 'deja vu' but shrugs it off, must just be gett'n old...::

So, would die roll fans be okay with this - We all start with standard array, then everyone rolls a d20. The highest roll gets +2 levels. Next up gets +1. Next starts at baseline level (presuming 1st) and lowest gets -1 level (use the effects from Raise Dead until you gain "first" level, 150 xp later).

Would that be considered fair?

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'Fair?' Everybody rolls, everybody abides by the roll, that'd be 'fair.' But then drawing lots to see who gets sacrificed to the Corn God this year is 'fair' in the same sense.

Whether it seems like a good idea has more to do with tradition than fairness.

Oofta said:

What bugs me is that sooner or later several of the "roll for stats" posts get rather condescending. "Suck it up like a big boy" is just one of several examples.

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What bugs me is that sooner or later "point buy" or "array" posters start referring to "roll for stats" posters as cheaters. Oh wait, that happened on page 1.

Oofta said:

In addition, many groups use the Creative Hero Enhanced Attribute Templates (C.H.E.A.T.) system (frequently with the permission of their DM) when rolling stats for characters. For example if you roll enough characters you will eventually have a good one, something I took advantage of in the old D&D video games like Baldur's Gate.

If you C.H.E.A.T., the resulting numbers of course will normally be higher than what you get with point buy.

The equivalent point buy C.H.E.A.T. method with is to simply give people more points to spend, or use a heroic array from previous editions. For example, give 32 points and consider letting people buy higher numbers.

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Try not using condescending phrases like "Creative Hero Enhanced Attribute Templates (C.H.E.A.T.)" system and maybe people will be less condescending toward you.

Hussar said:

I'm an even bigger fan of standard array. It stops all the mickey mouse stuff of dump statting and creates nicely rounded characters. Die rolling is, AFAIC, just bad.

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I don't quite understand how point buy stops dump stats. It seems to me that it enables it.

Rolling in order prevents dump stats by definition. You can't dump stat, because you'll get what's rolled.

Jacob Marley said:

What bugs me is that sooner or later "point buy" or "array" posters start referring to "roll for stats" posters as cheaters. Oh wait, that happened on page 1.



Try not using condescending phrases like "Creative Hero Enhanced Attribute Templates (C.H.E.A.T.)" system and maybe people will be less condescending toward you.

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Good lord ... it's a tongue-in-cheek acronym. Do some people cheat when rolling? The OP certainly seems to imply that his players have in the past.

But most people seem to use some variation of standard roll 4d6 drop lowest. I know we did back when I first started playing long before I was introduced to point buy options. Whether that's "adjusting" numbers, rolling multiple characters, character suicide if stats really suck, having a floor on the lowest number, having a floor on the lowest total or whatever.

I just couldn't come up with a simple acronym for "Roll 4d6 drop lowest, but then apply these extra rules because random dice rolls sometimes ends up with characters people don't like to play". R4DLBTATERBRDRSEUWCPDLTP doesn't really roll off the tongue.

Have a better acronym? Roll and Adjust After Roll? RAAR? Or just "Adjusted 4d6"? I'll change my boilerplate response for when this comes up again in 2-4 months.

Oofta said:

Good lord ... it's a tongue-in-cheek acronym. Do some people cheat when rolling? The OP certainly seems to imply that his players have in the past.

But most people seem to use some variation of standard roll 4d6 drop lowest. I know we did back when I first started playing long before I was introduced to point buy options. Whether that's "adjusting" numbers, rolling multiple characters, character suicide if stats really suck, having a floor on the lowest number, having a floor on the lowest total or whatever.

I just couldn't come up with a simple acronym for "Roll 4d6 drop lowest, but then apply these extra rules because random dice rolls sometimes ends up with characters people don't like to play". R4DLBTATERBRDRSEUWCPDLTP doesn't really roll off the tongue.

Have a better acronym? Roll and Adjust After Roll? RAAR? Or just "Adjusted 4d6"? I'll change my boilerplate response for when this comes up again in 2-4 months.

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It's true, there are a near limitless number of variations used by those of us who roll stats. There is no simple acronym that will account for every permutation. However, the term C.H.E.A.T. has a very obvious negative connotation. And in the seven years I've been on these boards, I cannot recall ever seeing it used by someone who rolls for stats; only by those who prefer other stat generation methods. That's what makes it condescending. 4d6DL works just fine.

Ilbranteloth said:

Rolling in order prevents dump stats by definition. You can't dump stat, because you'll get what's rolled.

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You can't choose not to, either. You happen to roll low, oh well, it's dumped. Array, you have to have a low(ish) stat, too. Point-buy, you hat least have a choice, you can choose to have some higher and some lower, or all fairly modest...
...arguably the system doesn't much encourage the latter.