Xanathar's War Mage is Gandalf, Dr Strange, and Elric

Leatherhead · Oct 16, 2017

The test was rigged

Most people saw the power level was out of whack and gave it a score only based on that. Also, there was no "Is this subclass an interesting or cool concept ?" Question.

Gadget · Oct 16, 2017

So, I know that they are trying to hype the subclass, but from the description one wonders why one would ever play another subclass! Super powered artillery, plus super resilient? Let me see, sounds like the wet dream of approximately every adventuring wizard ever. We'll have to wait and see of course, but why play an Abjurer or Evoker? Its not like you're denied access to spells of any particular school, after all.

Chaosmancer · Oct 17, 2017

I'm actually a little more excited for this subclass than I was before. Mostly, it's the ability to take spell energy while Counterspelling. That is just a cool trick and no one else can currently do that.

Also, let's not make this "super good at damage and super resilient" line of thinking go to far. They are "more resilient" than your average wizard. Just like a paper bag is "more resilient" than a wet paper bag. Unless their defensive abilities are incredibly substantial (like getting the shield spell at-will and a large bonus to hit points per level and the ability to heal themselves) then they are still going to fairly squishy and not want to be the focus of attacks.

Though, I will say, it does make me wonder what a EK 6 /WW 14 would end up looking like. That could be a fun build for an NPC lord of a realm type character.

MoonSong · Oct 17, 2017

Kobold Avenger said:
The one Wizard subclass is not the Theurge? That goes against most predictions even mine...

I called it. n_n

Leatherhead said:
I'm not surprised the War Wizard is the one they slipped in.

But I'm still disappointed they went with the least evocative (heh) subclass, instead of making the two interesting subclasses work. Another combat wizard for the pile, I suppose.

Truth is, there is not much room left for wizard to go. The school traditions are too versatile, so a generalist has to go overboard in order to be worth it, problem is -as shown by the Lore Master- there is not a lot of space left without it overshadowing either bard or sorcerer. The Theurge had a similar problem, it overshadowed not just the cleric,but the Celestial Warlock and Divine Soul as well -And they are a big selling point of the book-. There has to be something wizard cannot do, even back in AD&D wizards had clear limits.

I think we can hope for some wizard traditions in the future, there are lots of iconic versions in the settings: Wizards of High Sorcery, Defilers, Preservers, Red Wizards. I wouldn't hold my breath though. And I don't think Incantatrix would make it, as it has the same problem as Lore Master, stepping on other classes.

Phazonfish · Oct 17, 2017

This is immensely disappointing. I hoped for a fixed Lore Master. I expected the Theurge. The War Mage has no soul (and not in a good way like the Warlock). Is there a reason why the Wizard only got one subclass, but apparently there was enough room for most classes to get three subclasses and the Rogue to get four?!? (Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, I haven't been keeping up) Oh well, at least the Grave domain Cleric made the cut.

Leatherhead · Oct 17, 2017

MoonSong said:
Truth is ... there is not a lot of space left without it overshadowing either bard or sorcerer.

I'm not convinced that stepping on the other classes toes, in terms of mechanics or themes, is a concern for the WotC devs anymore.

Parmandur · Oct 17, 2017

Phazonfish said:
This is immensely disappointing. I hoped for a fixed Lore Master. I expected the Theurge. The War Mage has no soul (and not in a good way like the Warlock). Is there a reason why the Wizard only got one subclass, but apparently there was enough room for most classes to get three subclasses and the Rogue to get four?!? (Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, I haven't been keeping up) Oh well, at least the Grave domain Cleric made the cut.

The SCAG reprints we're stated to be based on popularity in the AL, and they did surveys to determine the desirability of the proposed new subclasses; guess Theurge didn't make the cut this go around.

Dannyalcatraz · Oct 17, 2017

Kobold Avenger said:
I have a distaste for the Generalist Wizard based on the fact a General Studies Degree from University doesn't get your far...

Declare a major like Necromancy or Divination!

Oddly enough, those are the 2 disciplines- along with Enchatment- that have the best average GPAs among their students. Diviners are pretty damn good at finding out answers (duh). Necromancers know where all the bodies are buried (literally), so they can dig up dirt on their profs and blackmail them for good scores. Enchanters usually just charm their way to better grades, though some just Sleep their way to the top of the grading curve.

MoonSong · Oct 17, 2017

Leatherhead said:
I'm not convinced that stepping on the other classes toes, in terms of mechanics or themes, is a concern for the WotC devs anymore.

On the contrary, this selection of subclasses has convinced me they still care. (And maybe that they are out of ideas for wizard subclasses). They choose a safe token wizard subclass for a reason. Other casters may dabble in another class schtick, because it is resource intensive for them, -A sorcerer can twin a cure wounds, but it evens out with Life Cleric bonus, cleric can still memorize more spells than sorcerer gets to know- but wizard is just too flexible, and wizard subclasses need to compete with the existing ones, so they have to go overboard without enraging other classes players. Hell broke loose after the Theurge was put on UA... As popular as wizards are, they are also potentially divisive so designers need to be careful with them.

Edit: and maybe someday they'll come with a good idea for a generalist wizard, and the Theurge might see the print in the future once they've made their money back on Xanathar's and Sorcerer and Warlock players get to enjoy doing something wizards can't for a while. Not today though, but this isn't the last time we see new Archetypes in print.

Azzy · Oct 17, 2017

Phazonfish said:
Is there a reason why the Wizard only got one subclass, but apparently there was enough room for most classes to get three subclasses and the Rogue to get four?!?

Yes, because the Wizard has more subclasses in the PHB than any other class (aside from the cleric), while most of the other classes have three or fewer subclasses. This brings all the classes (except for the druid) to at least five subclasses (counting both the PHB and Xanathar's). Here's the totals for each class (by way of [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION]):

Barbarian: 5
Bard: 5
Cleric: 9
Druid: 4
Fighter: 6
Monk: 6
Ranger: 5
Rogue: 7
Paladin: 5
Sorcerer: 5
Warlock: 5
Wizard: 9