Mercule
Adventurer
Oh, like Excalibur, Durandal, Naegling, and Mjolnir?
-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?
- Thread starter Morrus
- Start date
Shadowdweller00
Adventurer
Other than Gygax himself claiming otherwise you mean. Will track down a link when I get a moment.
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
We can quibble over exactly which elements EGG got from Tolkien, and to what degree, but those who think that D&D doesn't owe much of it's heritage, perhaps even its existence, to Tolkien are just...delusional.
For some reason anti-Tolkienism tends to have some of the same...aroma...as PC-gamers viscerally hating Macs, or Harley rider viscerally hating sport bikes. Somehow members of certain groups feel threatened by the existence/popularity of things that are similar to, but not part of, the focus of their self-identity. Either that or it's just a bonding ritual within the group.
For some reason anti-Tolkienism tends to have some of the same...aroma...as PC-gamers viscerally hating Macs, or Harley rider viscerally hating sport bikes. Somehow members of certain groups feel threatened by the existence/popularity of things that are similar to, but not part of, the focus of their self-identity. Either that or it's just a bonding ritual within the group.
Shadowdweller00
Adventurer
Ok. Tolkien clearly influenced general fantasy lore - and to be fair, a vast number of disparate individuals who clearly HAD read Tolkien made their own little additions throughout all the D&D source and adventure books even after the original vision put forth by Gygax, Arneson, et al. HOWEVER, quite a bit of what people seem to ascribe to Tolkien here were actually quite common and present in folklore, sword and sorcery fiction, and general art before and around the time of Tolkien. It's just that people in this particular part of the new millennium seem to have either forgotten or fail to appreciate the influence of sources like Wagner's Ring of the Nibelung or say Lord Dunsany's stories in general fantasy and the inception of D&D.
Last edited:
Shadowdweller00
Adventurer
D&D goblins tend more toward the mythological roots as mischievous, cowardly, and incompetent evil creatures. Tolkien's versions are much larger, sinister, ferocious, and more threatening. Tolkien describes them as having been responsible for machines of mass murder and destruction. Tolkien's goblins are orcs.
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
So, in other words, if Tolkien had never written his books, in the mid-70's EGG & Co. would have said, "You know, I was just listening to Wagner and I had this great idea for a new kind of game..."
I thinketh not.
Shadowdweller00
Adventurer
You do know that many of the monsters in the original monster manuals came from obscure mythological sources, right? Things that have no presence whatsoever in Tolkien, like Rakshasa and naga. Gygax and others were very clearly aware of and influenced by such things...Not to mention that Wagner's work is one of at least five different mythological variations on the same story (or rather set of stories). So, yes, the writers would have been very much aware of it.
Last edited:
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
I think you missed the point.
Of course I know that many...even most...monsters in D&D have sources other than Tolkien.
My question is whether we would even have "fantasy roleplaying" (or fantasy as a genre) in the absence of Tolkien. I am not suggesting he is the source of every idea, and yes he in turn got many of his ideas from other sources including English and northern European mythology (I'm surprised nobody has mentioned William Morris yet.)
But he popularized the genre. I don't think it would have occurred to the wargamers of the 70's to create fantasy roleplaying if Tolkien had died in WWI.
Shadowdweller00
Adventurer
Yes, we would have. D&D's roots are more directly from miniature wargaming than fantasy fiction. And contrary to popular delusion, Tolkien didn't create or single-handedly mainstream the entire genre either. Even within the realm of pulp "fantasy" fiction, stories like Robert Howard's Conan the Barbarian predate Lord of the Rings by decades...
Last edited:
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
Exactly. It was a bunch of guys reenacting historical (or at least historically-inspired) battles with miniatures. Not fantasy battles. And then one day they pivoted into a new genre.
Where are you getting "popular delusion" from? I certainly haven't seen anybody in this thread argue that he created or "single-handedly" mainstreamed the genre. Your arguing against a point of view that I don't think exists. Since you seem to be fond of hyperlinking to common knowledge, you may want to check out Straw man.
