D&D 5E Re-opening discussion on multiple spell concentration.

5ekyu · Nov 22, 2017

CapnZapp said:
This still doesn't help.

I buy a game to have its designers do the job for me.

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RPGs, tabletop RPGs, are not traditionally ones where the designers build your enemies, adversaries and chsllenges for you. Sure there are pre-fab varmints and even,modules etc but those always come with "adjust as needed" because there are so many variables ankut party and so forth its a WAG for PCs they have no knowledge of.

And no "balancer" has ever worked well for mid to high levels other than GM experience.

If you want pre-fab adversaries and balance, computer games or using equally pre-fab PCs are your best bet.

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CapnZapp · Nov 22, 2017

5ekyu said:
RPGs, tabletop RPGs, are not traditionally ones where the designers build your enemies, adversaries and chsllenges for you. Sure there are pre-fab varmints and even,modules etc but those always come with "adjust as needed" because there are so many variables ankut party and so forth its a WAG for PCs they have no knowledge of.

And no "balancer" has ever worked well for mid to high levels other than GM experience.

If you want pre-fab adversaries and balance, computer games or using equally pre-fab PCs are your best bet.

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Stop relativizing.

Asking for an Archmage NPC stat block or template that can break the mold in various ways, such as being able to concentrate on two low-level spells at the same time is entirely reasonable.

Just cut it out with the "do it yourself or go read a comic" bullcrap. Thank you.

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5ekyu · Nov 22, 2017

CapnZapp said:
Stop relativizing.

Asking for an Archmage NPC stat block or template that can break the mold in various ways, such as being able to concentrate on two low-level spells at the same time is entirely reasonable.

Just cut it out with the "do it yourself or go read a comic" bullcrap. Thank you.

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Its not relativizing (whatever you think that means) but being realistic.

The idea that asking for them to give you an NOC tailored to scratch your itch is not realustic if you step outside your skin and think how many other GMs there are. Is it realistic or reasonable for every single GM to get their itch scratched with a custom for their preferences pc published by the designers? How many would that be? How many tomes would that take.

Or is it more reasonable and more realistic for them to provide a variety of NPC templates and at higher levels expect GMs to tweak them to scratch their own itches?

If the notion of altering NPCs yourself being par for the course even being suggested makes you as irate as your response seems, re-thinking what games you are playing for enjoyment would seem reasonable.

No idea where comics fits into this tho. Did i mention comics or were you just confused?

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CapnZapp · Nov 22, 2017

5ekyu said:
Its not relativizing (whatever you think that means) but being realistic.

The idea that asking for them to give you an NOC tailored to scratch your itch is not realustic if you step outside your skin and think how many other GMs there are. Is it realistic or reasonable for every single GM to get their itch scratched with a custom for their preferences pc published by the designers? How many would that be? How many tomes would that take.

Or is it more reasonable and more realistic for them to provide a variety of NPC templates and at higher levels expect GMs to tweak them to scratch their own itches?

If the notion of altering NPCs yourself being par for the course even being suggested makes you as irate as your response seems, re-thinking what games you are playing for enjoyment would seem reasonable.

No idea where comics fits into this tho. Did i mention comics or were you just confused?

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It is very reasonable to ask for Archmages to get special tricks not available to low level mages.

The MM Archmage stat block only works so long. Now, several years after release, it is completely acceptable to ask for a better way to represent Vizeran or Mordenkainen (Out of the Abyss, Curse of Strahd). Thanks

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5ekyu · Nov 22, 2017

CapnZapp said:
It is very reasonable to ask for Archmages to get special tricks not available to low level mages.

The MM Archmage stat block only works so long. Now, several years after release, it is completely acceptable to ask for a better way to represent Vizeran or Mordenkainen (Out of the Abyss, Curse of Strahd). Thanks

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Of course it is... Just like a gazillion other npc special tweaks to other npc templates that a gazillion other gms want are also equally realistic and if they schedule your personak itch to be scratched after the first other 9754 itches for others you would be fine right, cuz its not that your itch takes precedence over all those others, right?

Heck, i would not be surprised if your own personal archmage delived by WOTC didnt tick of some multi-digit number of others who saw Morty different than you do. Or more likely, their Morty scratches a different person's itch and not yours and the rage continues.

Rage that someone else isnt scratching for you or scratch... Each determines for themselves which is more satisying.

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CapnZapp · Nov 22, 2017

5ekyu said:
Of course it is... Just like a gazillion other npc special tweaks to other npc templates that a gazillion other gms want are also equally realistic and if they schedule your personak itch to be scratched after the first other 9754 itches for others you would be fine right, cuz its not that your itch takes precedence over all those others, right?

Heck, i would not be surprised if your own personal archmage delived by WOTC didnt tick of some multi-digit number of others who saw Morty different than you do. Or more likely, their Morty scratches a different person's itch and not yours and the rage continues.

Rage that someone else isnt scratching for you or scratch... Each determines for themselves which is more satisying.

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If your only contribution to ways to open up multiple concentration (the topic of this thread) is to blather on about "9754 itches" then we're done. Bye now.

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5ekyu · Nov 22, 2017

If your only contribution is to push back on GM changes in favor of personalized npc publishing, the scales of the numbers seems apropos. Waiting for WotC left hand, GM doing his own right hand... Which fill up faster?

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Parmandur · Nov 22, 2017

CapnZapp said:
This still doesn't help.

I buy a game to have its designers do the job for me.

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And so they did: hence, Concentration rules as they stand in the books. Nobody can stop you from modifying them as you wish.

MarkB · Nov 25, 2017

Most of these suggestions seem destined to only incentivise spellcasters to become more buffbots and less active participants in a combat. If a spellcaster currently has two (or more) spell effects running that are benefiting the party, and taking damage means risking losing all of them, that's just more incentive to hide in a corner and concentrate on not drawing any fire. If multiple concentration makes it harder to succeed at concentration checks or imposes penalties to other checks, that's less incentive to get involved and try to contribute meaningfully to the battle.

I'd prefer the few suggestions that involve transferring the job of maintaining concentration away from the caster. Maybe have a feat or class feature that allows buff spells cast upon allies to be split into separate effects on each, with each character maintaining concentration on their own buff, and a failed concentration check only resulting in the loss of that buff for that one character. Maybe have a magic item (I'd make it a ring) which allows the wearer to take over maintaining concentration on a spell effect by touching a willing caster, leaving that caster free to cast another concentration spell.

CapnZapp · Nov 25, 2017

MarkB said:
Most of these suggestions seem destined to only incentivise spellcasters to become more buffbots and less active participants in a combat. If a spellcaster currently has two (or more) spell effects running that are benefiting the party, and taking damage means risking losing all of them, that's just more incentive to hide in a corner and concentrate on not drawing any fire. If multiple concentration makes it harder to succeed at concentration checks or imposes penalties to other checks, that's less incentive to get involved and try to contribute meaningfully to the battle.

I'd prefer the few suggestions that involve transferring the job of maintaining concentration away from the caster. Maybe have a feat or class feature that allows buff spells cast upon allies to be split into separate effects on each, with each character maintaining concentration on their own buff, and a failed concentration check only resulting in the loss of that buff for that one character. Maybe have a magic item (I'd make it a ring) which allows the wearer to take over maintaining concentration on a spell effect by touching a willing caster, leaving that caster free to cast another concentration spell.

Thank you for your well-reasoned post.

Of course, one doesn't preclude the other.

Specifically, only the ability off hand off concentration really cements your role as buff-bot. :angel:

Next, many players want to play a spellcaster to be individually awesome, and a complete set of additions should IMO include throwing them a bone too.

Also, spells with concentration are not solely confined to party buffs. There's also offensive (or semi-offensive) conc spells, as well as personal buff spells.

So, yes, the high-level ability to transfer the job of maintaining concentration away from the caster sounds neat. But so does the high-level ability to maintain several concentrations!

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D&D 5E Re-opening discussion on multiple spell concentration.

5ekyu

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CapnZapp

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5ekyu

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CapnZapp

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5ekyu

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CapnZapp

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5ekyu

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Parmandur

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MarkB

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CapnZapp

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