MechaPilot
Explorer
Sorry, but I stopped reading there. Some terms just make me lose all interest in reading or hearing what someone has to say.
D&D 5E Duergar and "nonstandard" races
- Thread starter Warpiglet
- Start date
Sorry, but I stopped reading there. Some terms just make me lose all interest in reading or hearing what someone has to say.
Warpiglet
Adventurer
That's cool. I stop reading stuff all the time. Normally I don't need to announce it...but whatevs. There is a correlation there I am sure, but I have lost interest
MechaPilot
Explorer
I only mention it because I play and allow non-standard races all the time; I've also played evil characters, and have allowed evil characters when I'm convinced a player is mature enough to handle playing evil. So, the topic would otherwise be of interest to me. Heck, one of my favorite characters was an evil tiefling who believed she was a nascent hellgoddess, gained cleric powers from that belief, and had a long-term goal of forming a cult and ascending to the godhood she felt was her due. She was certainly evil, and definitely a bit haughty (she kept a journal of her adventures that she was editing into the bible for her future cult), but she worked with a party of non-evil PCs just fine.
Warpiglet
Adventurer
Well then maybe the thread would have some interest to you even if I (we) do that sort of thing less often. If not, keep enjoying the best game ever!
Paul Farquhar
Legend
They aren't that alien, compared to a typical dwarf. Indeed I think the thing that makes standard dwarves uncomfortable is just how similar they are.
For all it's faults (such as being a sucky game) the Sword Coast Legends computer game depicts a Duergar city well. There are also Duergar characters (for speaking to rather than killing) in BGEE: the Black Pits.
The main drawback is they are really gloomy all the time, and their negative attitude can rub off in the real world.
Edit: Also in Baldur's Gate is a Lawful evil aligned dwarf companion (not actually a Duergar). He is simply portrayed as a grumpy money grubbing capitalist. You don't actually have to eat babies to portray and evil character.
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Paul Farquhar
Legend
FYI, here is a Duergar character I created but haven't played yet.
Durthain Deaphold
Class: Fighter, Background: Soldier, Alignment: LN
Personality traits: I am always grumpy and miserable. And that is on a good day.
Ideals: Work is the only thing that matters.
Bonds: My city was destroyed by dark elves and I have sworn vengeance on all their filthy kind.
Flaws: I will always obey the law, even when it causes misery. I hate dark elves and am likely to attack them on sight, irrespective of the odds.
Durthain Deaphold
Class: Fighter, Background: Soldier, Alignment: LN
Personality traits: I am always grumpy and miserable. And that is on a good day.
Ideals: Work is the only thing that matters.
Bonds: My city was destroyed by dark elves and I have sworn vengeance on all their filthy kind.
Flaws: I will always obey the law, even when it causes misery. I hate dark elves and am likely to attack them on sight, irrespective of the odds.
It looks like duergar evil (I have only the most passing knowledge of them) is a completely different brand of evil.
As a society they are bitter, paranoid and pessimistic. This has fostered a strong get them before they get you attitude with the assumption that everyone else will hurt you so you better do it first, combined with a belief that trying to get ahead is futile anyway. The combination of paranoia and depression, in my mind, creates a cruel, opportunistic environment. They all play nice up front (can't let on that you're on to them) but if someone were to fall and become vulnerable they will definitely kick them while they're down (they'd do the same to me if they could).
Compare to the drow which has a structured, unbelievably ambitious culture. Everything is competition to them, the strongest take control of their houses and cities, the weakest die as their betters prove their plots on their lessers. By the time you make it to your mid-teens you have probably killed at least one of your peers (perhaps indirectly) and destroyed the lives of several more, to do otherwise would have meant falling victim to a scheme that most likely would lead to death or enslavement.
The duergar obviously have the most opening for a non-evil character. Bitter, paranoid and depressed can be pulled back a bit so you don't look for the preemptive strike but are a terrible foe once betrayed. It can be a little harder to get them to work with a group as they will for a long time be on the lookout for the sudden, but inevitable betrayal. In contrast a drow from a (standard) drow society is going to have evil bred and nurtured into them, but will easily and comfortably work with others to further their ambitions, usually with the intention of turning on them for some gain in the future.
Obviously any character can be tweaked and shuck various norms, but I like to try to look at the overall shape of the culture first, so it is a clearer choice what is different about this character. I am biased in that I HATE non-evil drow without a REALLY good reason. Duergar I am fine with, but usually a life-debt or some other heavy bonding experience makes them easier to work with in my head.
As a society they are bitter, paranoid and pessimistic. This has fostered a strong get them before they get you attitude with the assumption that everyone else will hurt you so you better do it first, combined with a belief that trying to get ahead is futile anyway. The combination of paranoia and depression, in my mind, creates a cruel, opportunistic environment. They all play nice up front (can't let on that you're on to them) but if someone were to fall and become vulnerable they will definitely kick them while they're down (they'd do the same to me if they could).
Compare to the drow which has a structured, unbelievably ambitious culture. Everything is competition to them, the strongest take control of their houses and cities, the weakest die as their betters prove their plots on their lessers. By the time you make it to your mid-teens you have probably killed at least one of your peers (perhaps indirectly) and destroyed the lives of several more, to do otherwise would have meant falling victim to a scheme that most likely would lead to death or enslavement.
The duergar obviously have the most opening for a non-evil character. Bitter, paranoid and depressed can be pulled back a bit so you don't look for the preemptive strike but are a terrible foe once betrayed. It can be a little harder to get them to work with a group as they will for a long time be on the lookout for the sudden, but inevitable betrayal. In contrast a drow from a (standard) drow society is going to have evil bred and nurtured into them, but will easily and comfortably work with others to further their ambitions, usually with the intention of turning on them for some gain in the future.
Obviously any character can be tweaked and shuck various norms, but I like to try to look at the overall shape of the culture first, so it is a clearer choice what is different about this character. I am biased in that I HATE non-evil drow without a REALLY good reason. Duergar I am fine with, but usually a life-debt or some other heavy bonding experience makes them easier to work with in my head.
Evil humaniod races aren't the same as evil fiends or monsterous races like Beholders, none of them are inheriently evil.
So maybe your Grey Dwarf was raised by humans or regular Dwarves, or you Drow was raise by renegade surface Drow and was never exposed to Lolthian Drow culture, or your Hobgoblin was raised to serve in the Chill Mercanary group and often worked for and with humans and absorbed some of their values, maybe your the Bastard child of a Yuan Ti Pureblood father who seduced your human mother for intel, or your an isolated family of Bugbears who found the idea of being evil too much work, so you took an easier spying job for Elves. Or maybe your an Orc from many arrows, an attempt by Orcs to create a nation that is more civilized. Or any of these races that works for the Zhents are trained by them, they undoubtedly trained on how to conduct themselves.
Also Lawful Evil races tend to learn to respect order and hierarchy so they are less likely to go and commit senseless go crazy, its an easier transition imo to good or neutral alignment then say an orc from a wild tribe.
So maybe your Grey Dwarf was raised by humans or regular Dwarves, or you Drow was raise by renegade surface Drow and was never exposed to Lolthian Drow culture, or your Hobgoblin was raised to serve in the Chill Mercanary group and often worked for and with humans and absorbed some of their values, maybe your the Bastard child of a Yuan Ti Pureblood father who seduced your human mother for intel, or your an isolated family of Bugbears who found the idea of being evil too much work, so you took an easier spying job for Elves. Or maybe your an Orc from many arrows, an attempt by Orcs to create a nation that is more civilized. Or any of these races that works for the Zhents are trained by them, they undoubtedly trained on how to conduct themselves.
Also Lawful Evil races tend to learn to respect order and hierarchy so they are less likely to go and commit senseless go crazy, its an easier transition imo to good or neutral alignment then say an orc from a wild tribe.
Bingo evil humaniods aren't demons, they have the complexity that humans do, free will, and the ability to learn how to fit in and they don't act like mindless forces of destruction. There is room for subltier evils.
Greenstone.Walker
Adventurer
I would make the player aware of the in-game social repercussions of playing generally-considered-evil races.
The drow PC might not be evil, but every one they meet will assume they are.
I'd also make sure the game follows through on this promise. Surface guards will attack drow on sight. Merchants will flatly refuse to serve orcs, golblins, dark dwarves and derro. And as for all the Volo's monsters, well, they probably won't make it closer than one bowshot from the city walls.
I'd then ignore the whines of players. I run a campaign that is extremely human-centric. I warned everyone that if they played monsters then there would be consequences. So, what did they come up with? A dragonkin, a ghostwise halfling who speaks into people's minds, a gnome (the most normal of the group!), a genasi with hair on fire. The first time guards refused them entry to a town, sheesh, the whining around that table. "How are we supposed to raise an army when the city leaders won't even talk to us?" Well, you chose to play monsters...
The drow PC might not be evil, but every one they meet will assume they are.
I'd also make sure the game follows through on this promise. Surface guards will attack drow on sight. Merchants will flatly refuse to serve orcs, golblins, dark dwarves and derro. And as for all the Volo's monsters, well, they probably won't make it closer than one bowshot from the city walls.
I'd then ignore the whines of players.
I run a campaign that is extremely human-centric. I warned everyone that if they played monsters then there would be consequences. So, what did they come up with? A dragonkin, a ghostwise halfling who speaks into people's minds, a gnome (the most normal of the group!), a genasi with hair on fire. The first time guards refused them entry to a town, sheesh, the whining around that table. "How are we supposed to raise an army when the city leaders won't even talk to us?" Well, you chose to play monsters...Similar Threads
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