D&D 5E Duergar and "nonstandard" races

[Warpiglet]

Hello all,

I have greatly avoided special snowflake races since 1sted (I am looking at you drow!). I think this is partially due to the work it takes to integrate into a standard campaign without really ignoring standard lore.

I am really tempted to play a duergar as I generally really enjoy dwarves and the aesthetics of the gray dwarves appeal to me. I realize what disadvantage in daylight means. Not being solely a powergamer my interest in variety is greater than my avoidance of penalties.

My question:

For those of you (all five of you?) who have played duergar, are they too alien to mesh well with a typical party? How have you felt about the roleplaying aspect of the duergar?

Its totally subjective but just curious. Thought it might also give me some good character ideas should I ever get to actually play the character...

Part of my problem with "evil" races is that unless there is a really unique circumstance, creatures with no knowledge of goodness would not be very prosocial or a team player. So, any ideas about how a duergar might come to be a trusted ally who occasionally trusts would also be fun to discuss!

Looking forward to hearing some ideas!

 

[Hawk Diesel]

So from my perspective there's a couple of ways to look at "evil" and "evil races." Being evil does not mean you have no idea how to cooperate with others, delay gratification, or integrate in a society. It also doesn't mean you kill without reason or seek to torture things for the sake of it at all times. Any race like that would not be able to coexist in any sort of social means.

I would suggest looking to examples such as the title character in Dexter (the Showtime show) or Dennis from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. These characters provide an example of truly evil sociopaths that can form connections (not friendships, since these characters view others as tools to achieve their own goals) and an ability to blend in and exist within a larger society.

 

[iserith]

When I play odd races or evil alignments, I start from the same position as any other character race or alignment I'm playing: I know and trust the other party members enough to boldly confront deadly perils with them. And they can trust me to do the same. My enemies are the NPCs and monsters outside of the party that oppose our goals, not the other PCs.

From there I work backwards to explain why that is despite whatever baggage comes with the race or alignment I've chosen.

 

[DEFCON 1]

"Evil" races still learn to live with each other. That's how they survive. Which is part of the reason why I find identifying an entire race as defacto "evil" completely useless. Just like defining an entire race as "good" to be useless as well.

Elves are considered "good". Great. We've now said that. But now what? What does that mean for any specific elf? To my mind, absolutely nothing. An entire race of people have a tendency to believe or behave in X, Y, or Z... but none of that matters or comes up when you create your specific character. Your specific character is not defined by X, Y, or Z, because odds are good your character has had other stuff happen in their life that is not X, Y, or Z. So you can't therefore automatically say your particular elf PC is "good". It's the reason why you get to select your alignment for your PC in the first place.

Likewise... duergar as a race have a tendency towards A, B, and C, which would define them on some sort of top-down chart as being "evil". So so what? Your duergar PC isn't that amorphous generic default duergar. Your life has not been defined absolutely by A, B, and C. Your life as a duergar could be defined by anything. So there is absolutely no reason why you couldn't have a duergar be a "team player" or "prosocial". Those are just as valid personality traits for a single duergar amongst the entirety of the duergar race as the single solitary halfling who believes in "survival of the fittest" and "the ends justify the means" amongst the entirety of the halfling race. Neither are "typical" of that race... but so what? You are making a unique character to play in a unique situation. There's usually nothing "typical" about it.

 

[monsmord]

I've not played a duergar, so can't offer any help about their specific integration problems or attributes/hindrances, but I have played evil characters. And for me, it's the word "character" that's important.

IMO, it would be unfair to duergar (or any "evil race") to describe them as having no knowledge of goodness. There's a tendency to conflate "evil" with being deceitful, brutal, selfish, lacking empathy, loveless, inconstant, disloyal, murderous, etc. But there are "good" races, cultures, and characters with those qualities as well. If a race was truly so thoroughly contemptuous of others, it'd be hard to build communities, have families, etc. YMMV, and your campaign world's cultures may be unique and unlike our world's, but chances are the duergar are capable of a wide range of outlooks and attitudes towards both their race/culture and those of others. Your character doesn't have to be "good" or as un-like their fellows (a la Drizzt) to be playable.

D&D alignment is a sticky wicket here. Does your party include a paladin or some other class that makes integration extremely difficult? Does your group often find or use aligned magic items? Does your campaign world feature black-and-white heroes, race wars, pacts among "good races" or "evil races" to battle the other, or a great deal of racism across the populace? Issues like this could prove problematic.

But from a character- or party-building standpoint, there's no reason an evil character couldn't integrate fully with a generally good or neutral party unless their behaviors are so wanton that every encounter becomes a philosophical or moral argument. "Evil" characters can befriend, love, defend, protect, value, and be loyal to anyone that suits them, for whatever reasons. And what an opportunity for role-playing drama (and, in a best-case, comedy)!

In the end, your players and DM are the most important considerations. If your campaign world supports it, and everyone at the table is willing to role-play, you should find a home.

 

[Cyrinishad]

Hello all,

I have greatly avoided special snowflake races since 1sted (I am looking at you drow!). I think this is partially due to the work it takes to integrate into a standard campaign without really ignoring standard lore.

I am really tempted to play a duergar as I generally really enjoy dwarves and the aesthetics of the gray dwarves appeal to me. I realize what disadvantage in daylight means. Not being solely a powergamer my interest in variety is greater than my avoidance of penalties.

My question:

For those of you (all five of you?) who have played duergar, are they too alien to mesh well with a typical party? How have you felt about the roleplaying aspect of the duergar?

Its totally subjective but just curious. Thought it might also give me some good character ideas should I ever get to actually play the character...

Part of my problem with "evil" races is that unless there is a really unique circumstance, creatures with no knowledge of goodness would not be very prosocial or a team player. So, any ideas about how a duergar might come to be a trusted ally who occasionally trusts would also be fun to discuss!

Looking forward to hearing some ideas!

Well, my general presumption is that the "evil" of the so-called "evil" races is generally overstated by the so-called "good" races... but, I don't want to derail this so I'll circle back to the OP's question... I think that out of many of the "evil" races, a duergar is probably one of the ones that is more likely mesh well with a typical party, regardless of which Lore you choose to reference about them.

A Duergar is still a dwarf, and even Abbathor wasn't completely cast out of the Dwarven pantheon by Moradin... so, I would focus on the Dwarven qualities that transcend the Good vs. Evil dynamic... Grudges, Loyalty, Clan, Gold, etc...

If you use the Lore that presumes the Duergar were created by the Mind Flayers, and had to escape their enslavement... That has a lot of elements that fit well with a typical party... Fight Fire with Fire (Evil vs. Evil)... or a strong inclination to support the oppressed (and be the first to loot the corpses of the tyrants)...

Or if you use the Lore that presumes the Duergar were created by Asmodeus... That could suggest a strong inclination to adhere to Contracts/Agreements (regardless of the Good vs. Evil dynamic)... It could also play directly into the Good vs. Evil dynamic by going with a "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer" concept, or a long-term game of corruption by trying to get the typical party to believe that "Greed is Good" (even though it is totally Evil)...

...Finally, there is always the classic redemption angle... Could this be the Duergar that breaks the curse that has befallen his race?

 

[Warpiglet]

Well, my general presumption is that the "evil" of the so-called "evil" races is generally overstated by the so-called "good" races... but, I don't want to derail this so I'll circle back to the OP's question... I think that out of many of the "evil" races, a duergar is probably one of the ones that is more likely mesh well with a typical party, regardless of which Lore you choose to reference about them.

A Duergar is still a dwarf, and even Abbathor wasn't completely cast out of the Dwarven pantheon by Moradin... so, I would focus on the Dwarven qualities that transcend the Good vs. Evil dynamic... Grudges, Loyalty, Clan, Gold, etc...

If you use the Lore that presumes the Duergar were created by the Mind Flayers, and had to escape their enslavement... That has a lot of elements that fit well with a typical party... Fight Fire with Fire (Evil vs. Evil)... or a strong inclination to support the oppressed (and be the first to loot the corpses of the tyrants)...

Or if you use the Lore that presumes the Duergar were created by Asmodeus... That could suggest a strong inclination to adhere to Contracts/Agreements (regardless of the Good vs. Evil dynamic)... It could also play directly into the Good vs. Evil dynamic by going with a "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer" concept, or a long-term game of corruption by trying to get the typical party to believe that "Greed is Good" (even though it is totally Evil)...

...Finally, there is always the classic redemption angle... Could this be the Duergar that breaks the curse that has befallen his race?

I like playing up general dwarf traits. I think the addition will be that he is particularly sardonic and pessimistic such that I will take popular quotes and warp them accordingly to have a negative connotation. Good things come to those who wait? His take would probably be death comes to those that wait--if he was thinking about taking action. Or whatever more creative ideas that might come about.

I am thinking Lawful Neutral and in some way he moved off of purely selfish tendencies. Perhaps he was a slave and saw good dwarf clans working together and was amazed. If I go with warlock perhaps a more benign entity gave him visions of a better way. Or maybe he found and read the true secret history of his race and finds that evil was thrust upon them when they were in chains.

But I like the idea of dwarf first, then a twist. Thanks for the food for thought!

 

[ccs]

Another thing you should consider:
How, as a Duergar, will you be seen by others? Be they PC or NPC. Especially other types of Dwarves.
Do they realize the dire reputation of the Duergar? Because, regardless of what your alignment is, like the Drow there's good reasons this race is known to be evil....
Or is this just going to handwaved away & you'll just be playing a set of stat mods etc?





edit: spelling

 

[aco175]

A lot depends on how much the DM makes race a problem. If he can pass as a normal dwarf, more or less, than things become more background. It's not like a goblin or drow walk into town and go to the tavern. Your world may be a lot different than mine where most townsfolk shoot first at goblins and drow.

Playing him may involve skulking in heavy cloaks and being rude or hoarding things out of habit. Also, you will need to share the spotlight with the other players and let their PCs shine for a time.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

If you like the duergar’s flavor and backstory, I’d recommend the 3e Slayers Guide to Duergar book from Mongoose. The mechanics are outdated now, but there’s some really good detail on the race in it.

The trick to playing an evil PC, I think, is knowing the boundary between role-playing and outright conflict. A little friction, when everyone’s on-board with it, can make things interesting. Conflict, on the other hand, can bog a game down or even derail it.