D&D 5E The Bard's Inspiration Die...

ElectricDragon said:

For Cutting Words, I am unsure what would be appropriate, an across-the-board -1 to all opponents in range seems too powerful for a reaction which assumes instantly affected and not saved until they try something. So maybe Cutting Words doesn't need to be able to affect multiple opponents.

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Unless it is for a large amount of opponents this is quite a bit weaker than their current ability.

Being able to use it after the roll is very powerful. A -1 to attacks likely won't have any effect in the battle.

This is the same reason why Shield is stronger than Mage Armour.

Bless -
Casting Time: Action or outside of combat
Duration: 1 minute or until loss of concentration
Concentration
Effect: 1d4 on attack rolls & saving throws for 3 allies (or more cast at higher levels) for 1 minute.
As a first level spell, it's a really good buff.

Bardic Inspiration -
Casting Time: Bonus Action or outside of combat
Duration: 10 minutes or until used
Effect: 1d6 (up to 1d12 at higher levels) on attack rolls & saving throws for 1 ally, once, and then it's gone, forever, until the Bard graces you with another one.
It's an okay ability at best in it's current circumstance. And yes, a d12 later is pretty awesome, but by then, combat should be harder, saves should be crazier, conditions may cause you to save at Disadvantage, or have minuses to certain things in combat, etc... so that d12 may save you, but only one of you.

So perhaps instead you gain a number of uses equal to your Charisma modifier a Long Rest (eventually a Short Rest), you can effect up to that many people at once, and regain your use at the end of a Short Rest.
So you get 1 use, can effect between 1-5 allies depending on Charisma mod, and then have to Short or Long Rest before you're able to use it again.

Something like Cutting Words could be a different ability that is also used 1 a Short Rest, but it effects 1 target.

Or, alternatively, Cutting Words could share the same slot Bardic Inspiration does, and it acts the same was as Bardic Inspiration except it works like Cutting Words works where you undermine the enemies' abilities.

Slit518 said:

Bardic Inspiration -
Casting Time: Bonus Action or outside of combat
Duration: 10 minutes or until used

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Also not a spell slot. The Bard has a pool of them in addition to their full casting.

Effect: 1d6 (up to 1d12 at higher levels) on attack rolls & saving throws for 1 ally, once, and then it's gone, forever, until the Bard graces you with another one.

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This is wrong.

It is much more powerful than this. It is used after the roll.

It would be a fairly weak ability if it needed to be used before the roll. Even still, it would be an okay ability on a full caster.

(It can also be used for an ability check. Ability checks don't occur very often but when they do they usually have a big impact.)

ad_hoc said:

Also not a spell slot. The Bard has a pool of them in addition to their full casting.

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I know it's not a spell, I just compared it to one while comparing it to Bless. If anything, I should of put "Ability," or some other text.

ad_hoc said:

This is wrong.

It is much more powerful than this. It is used after the roll.

It would be a fairly weak ability if it needed to be used before the roll. Even still, it would be an okay ability on a full caster.

(It can also be used for an ability check. Ability checks don't occur very often but when they do they usually have a big impact.)

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Bless doesn't need to be used after the roll, because you get to keep using it. There is no reason not to roll Bless with your rolls.

Of course they made the one-use Bard ability after the roll, it would be sub-par otherwise.

Slit518 said:

I know it's not a spell, I just compared it to one while comparing it to Bless. If anything, I should of put "Ability," or some other text.

Bless doesn't need to be used after the roll, because you get to keep using it. There is no reason not to roll Bless with your rolls.

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But you weren't comparing it to Bless there. You were stating what it was. In order to compare it accurately you need to be accurate with what it is.

Bardic Inspiration is much more powerful than you think it is.

Of course they made the one-use Bard ability after the roll, it would be sub-par otherwise.

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Sub-par compared to what? To Bless? It's not an either/or. Bless uses a spell slot, an action, and concentration. Bardic Inspiration is an additional pool of dice that the Bard gets on top of their full casting.

Bardic Inspiration and Bless are both worse than Wish. That doesn't make either bad.

ad_hoc said:

Sub-par compared to what? To Bless? It's not an either/or. Bless uses a spell slot, an action, and concentration. Bardic Inspiration is an additional pool of dice that the Bard gets on top of their full casting.

Bardic Inspiration and Bless are both worse than Wish. That doesn't make either bad.

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They're both level 1 abilities, ad_hoc.

Bardic Inspiration scales on it's own, Bless can scale with the use of higher level spell slots.

Wish is a 9th level spell.

There really isn't an equal comparison of a natural 9th level spell to an upscaled 1st level spell up to 9th level, or an ability that scales.

Bard is, 1) one of the top tier powerful classes of this edition already, and 2) fairly popular in this edition.

You want to house rule it, cool. But, I don't think you're going to persuade anyone it's underpowered or that their keystone ability needs to be changed because it's too weak. It's pretty darn popular as it is...and your own poll is demonstrating that.

Mistwell said:

Bard is, 1) one of the top tier powerful classes of this edition already, and 2) fairly popular in this edition.

You want to house rule it, cool. But, I don't think you're going to persuade anyone it's underpowered or that their keystone ability needs to be changed because it's too weak. It's pretty darn popular as it is...and your own poll is demonstrating that.

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I'm just curious, what other classes are top tier?

Slit518 said:

They're both level 1 abilities, ad_hoc.

Bardic Inspiration scales on it's own, Bless can scale with the use of higher level spell slots.

Wish is a 9th level spell.

There really isn't an equal comparison of a natural 9th level spell to an upscaled 1st level spell up to 9th level, or an ability that scales.

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Rage is a level 1 ability which is better than both Bless and Bardic Inspiration.

If the design goal here is to make all level 1 abilities equal in power:

1) You're going to have a very hard time doing it
2) Your game is going to be very wonky

Slit518 said:

They're both level 1 abilities, ad_hoc.

Bardic Inspiration scales on it's own, Bless can scale with the use of higher level spell slots.

Wish is a 9th level spell.

There really isn't an equal comparison of a natural 9th level spell to an upscaled 1st level spell up to 9th level, or an ability that scales.

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Should any 6th level class ability that can cause damage be equal in impact to a fireball or be considered sub-par?
Should any 5th level class ability that deals with movement on its own be equal to fly in impact or be considered sub-par?
Should the gains from an 11th level class ability that deals with damage be equivalent to disintigrate or be considered sub-par?

again, the method of trying to determine balance comparisons by comparing one element of one package vs another element of another package across classes should not be taken as a valid approach for judging whether or not a boost is needed to an element or an ability. There are a lot of elements that go into a class.

I mean, lets see - clerics get two skills from a limited number of skills while bards get three skills from the list of all skills. Does that mean that c;early the cleric is under-skilled and should get their skills list changed and slots increased? Fighters get d10 HD but wizards get d6 - obviously that needs to be changed too?

In the two cases above, i was comparing apples to apples - specific sub-elements to their exact equivalants - , not apples to squash (a spell vs a class feature.)

Obviously, as a GM one is free to alter classes as they feel is appropriate and add or subtract whatever they want as long as their players consent to the changes but in this case the attempts to support this as somehow an objective need, a showable imbalance, etc are not compelling or even based on a sound comparative foundation.

The YUGE change in bonus actions for a boss fight and the gains of the inspire dice across party from round one the "spend all at once" rule change would create seems very much a significant and overly strong improvement to *not* the inspiration die itself but to the bard overall - freeing three or four bonus actions to the first five rounds of big fights.

I just do not see that as an established need supported by any evidence of bard class weakness overall and find apples to squash arguments to be more or less auto-fails as far as being convincing of any balance assessments.