Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Well, yes they will know; as in theory you can't fail on a high roll even though you should be able to if there isn't a door there to find.
What is *worldbuilding* for?
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
There is one big difference. That is what the rules of composition for the narrated fiction are. In a pre-authored adventure or as part of 'world building' (however that argument comes out) the fiction is part of a whole scenario which has, as its ends, something the GM thought of. In fact we can't really even say for sure, but its an 'agenda' set by the GM. Maybe, often, its calculated to appeal to the players. OTOH the fiction composed by the Story Now GM is DEFINITELY composed in respect of, and only in respect of, the elements of characterization and thematic interest generated by the players.
This is a profound difference. It is the ONLY true and universal difference. I still argue that other things stem from that, but we've already had those discussions.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
OK, but remember, ALL THAT CAME BEFORE, thus all the 'NPCs, Factions, PC backstory, etc' was all invented in service to the story that the players want to engage in! So the GM is perfectly free to operate within the realm of 'story logic' and that doesn't constrain his ability to give the players what they want. In fact it is NECESSARY to giving them what they want, which is the type of entertainment they have asked for.
Now, the GM is going to have conceptions and ideas and whatnot, and that's going to play a strong part too. Obviously [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] are going to frame different scenes, even if they somehow found themselves GMing the same situation.
Sure, I think its not even controversial to say that the input of the GM is PRIMARY. He's framing every scene and deciding when to say yes and when to ask for a check (there could be other things, I'm using a Story Now rendition of 4e as an example). I don't think Story Now or No Myth is intended to remove or even reduce the influence of the GM. It is ONLY about who's story it is, and what the main content of it relates to.
happyhermit
Adventurer
I could quibble with some details here but we pretty much agree. The main point is that "stories" as pemerton put it, are being told by the GM in either case, not only in the GM-worldbuilding situation. The stories can be different (they don't need to be) but the real difference is the limitations on the way they are generated, not whether one game has GM's telling them or not.
I would think not, but pemerton has written things that indicates they are at odds with this and the idea that the GM is telling stories mediated by several factors in both types of games. Then again, it isn't always clear what they are arguing. It seemed like they were arguing that using "kickers" in a game with any GM worldbuilding was impossible for instance, at one point, still not sure.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
You mean your definition of what constitutes a railroad? Yep, I read it; and I disagree with it.
And to your credit, you have, at great length.
I don't agree with a lot of what you post but I commend you for the effort you put in to posting it.
And this is where your definition of "railroad" differs from the usual norm, I think.
Oh yes it does, believe me; but in the more usual lead-'em-by-the-nose sense rather than your particular definition.
If by "puzzle-solving" you mean mysteries and unrevealed plots the individual bits of which can take a long time to piece together, then yes; those are a big feature in my games on those occasions when I can pull them off. But even then my plots can't hold a candle to that chart from your OA game you posted a few days ago.
Well, it has kind of become just this disagreement.
And it's this too. Railroading really wouldn't enter much into the topic at all were it not for your redefinition of the word to include pre-authored setting content influencing action resolution.
Lanefan
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
The problem is, when you put it this starkly it reads as if the DM is not allowed to insert anything of thematic interest to herself, and has to bury or deny any interests she might have.
But then you say this in the next post:
So the DM can have influence on the players' stories but not insert any story of her own? Hardly what I'd call recruitment-poster material for attracting new DMs.
Lanefan
A simple way to think about player-facing games is reverse causation. Rather than the GM extrapolating plausible consequence for player action, the GM adjusts the starting circumstance to support the determined outcome and uses that combination to drop the players into a new soup.
If a player is looking for a secret door and rolls well enough, they will find one and thus establish that such a door exists and change the circumstances so they are using it. If they don't roll well enough, they may* not find one and thus have to deal with their current circumstance without such an asset. Neither the players nor the GM know the future path for the group and it is still possible** that the group's situation will remain in this locale long enough that another pressure point will develop and a new player declaration (either success or failure) will lead to the discovery of a secret door.
* The player could still find a secret door at the GM's whim with a low roll, but the value of the door in the current situation will be negative.
** Possible, but somewhat unlikely. It tends to signal a dearth of creativity on the part of the GM and/or group.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
What a profound defense of the use of stereotypes because it's taking about generalities and not specific people.
Tony Vargas
Legend
D&D may have been originally conceived as a wargame, but it seems like 'puzzle-solving game' was the overt primary thrust as early as the Greyhawk supplement, and stayed that way, 2e protestations of storytelling and setting-first notwithstanding, throughout TSRs reign. That's become fixed in a lotta mind-sets.
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