Paladin / Warlock Faith conflict query

Guest 6801328 · Feb 20, 2018

MechaTarrasque said:
I think how the oaths work in terms of where the power comes from is purposely designed to be table dependent: someone swears an oath, black box (the table dependent part) happens, and viola, you have a paladin. We can argue about the elegance and implications of a given table's black box, but I don't think anyone will find any evidence that one table's black box is more "right" than any others. This is one of those "rulings over rules" things.

Yeah, this. Nobody is going to "win" this argument.

My black box is that it would depend on the situation. I would rule that the Oath has to be sincere. An oath is not a deity, but there's tangible magic/power involved.

The Pact with the Patron, however, doesn't require any sincerity. There's only an assumption that the Patron believes your sincerity, at least at first.

If making the Pact doesn't conflict with the Oath I would allow it, at least at the start.

If keeping the Pact conflicts with the Oath there would be problems with Paladin powers.

If keeping the Oath conflicts with the Pact there would be problems with the Patron.

Xetheral · Feb 20, 2018

lowkey13 said:
Well, I think there would be no arguments about Paladins if we could all just collectively agree to ignore them.

Just in general.

Forever.

In the alternative, kill them. But not humanely.

This is inefficient. Instead, convince half the paladins to murder the other half. Same result, half the work.

For more efficiency, consider some sort of pyramid scheme involving convincing paladins to each get multiple other paladins to muder other paladins. (I suggest 3.5e, for greater ability to boost that diplomacy check.)

lowkey13 · Feb 20, 2018

*Deleted by user*

nswanson27 · Feb 20, 2018

Haven't read all the pages, but just to state that pacts don't have to be willing, nor do they need to be made by that individual. They can be made by an ancestor, for example. Makes for an interesting narrative that both the player and DM can delve into.

Cap'n Kobold · Feb 20, 2018

dco said:
The mechanics are the same, the rest no. It's not the same to spend the life training and devoting your soul to your god who gives you divine powers than make an oath and gain divine powers.

The paladin has already spent their life training and devoting their soul to their cause just as much as a cleric is required to before they swear their oath.

Worship alone doesn't give you divine powers, the God chooses you and gives you the powers and expects something from you.

I'm sure that that may be true for some settings. However it isn't required to be a cleric in 5e: There are 'deities' that are not Gods and that cannot make that sort of choices right there in the PHB. Its belief, not worship in the setting I use.

The current class gain the powers from a simple oath, not sure why a soldier who makes an oath could not have divine powers in that kind of world, or a couple, or any other individual swearing something, it should be something usual.

As pointed out to you several times earlier, its not just a simple oath any more than a spell is "simply words". In D&D, devoting your life and soul to something can, in some individuals, grant power. Not every worshipper is a cleric, not every martial artist is a fighter, not everyone who dedicates their life to a cause is a paladin.
The 'simple oath' that a paladin swears at 3rd level is the finalisation of the previous two paladin levels, plus however much of the character's life beforehand, of dedication and belief in their cause. If it helps, you can think of that as the source of a Paladin's powers rather than the oath itself, and the oath as merely a formalisation of the direction and cause that the Paladin is already serving.

The rules don't say anything about the paladin's oath reaching the cosmos and changing the reality.

Spells are pretty much the ability to bend reality, as are some of the other magical and supernatural abilities that paladin's get.

Satyrn · Feb 20, 2018

Wiseblood said:
So could you also swear fealty to another king? Or make a pact with another merchant? Since there appears to be no exclusivity clause in your oath or your pact. If you can not, why can't you?
Making a pact to trengthen yourself for service sounds good. Is there anyone who would be off limits for such agreements?

Wiseblood said:
So could you also swear fealty to another king?

Probably not a good idea. In our analogy, that'd be like trying to mu,tickass paladin with paladin and so wouldn't be possible.

Or make a pact with another merchant?

I would think you should be able to, again it doesn't work in our analogy since that would be multiclassing warlock with warlock.

Since there appears to be no exclusivity clause in your oath or your pact. If you can not, why can't you?

I did imply exclusivity. As far as the oath goes, swearing fealty to a king rather automically excludes swearing fealty to a second king.

As far as the merchant pact goes, yeah the analogy could be worked better to suggest the exclusivity that the game's rules enforce. If, rather than marrying off my daughter, the price of the deal is to marry the merchant's daughter then we get our analogy closer to the rules.

Making a pact to trengthen yourself for service sounds good. Is there anyone who would be off limits for such agreements?

I think I already ansewered when I said "Unless my oath to Arthur included a vow to have nothing to do with Venetian Merchants." That is, I'm sure there would be, but it totally depends on the oath.

ccs · Feb 20, 2018

Yunru said:
So to all those who go "No, bad! 1e Paladin for life!"
What if you never take your Oath?
A level 2 Paladin's sworn to no-one and nothing.

And what? Tries to MC to warlock?
I've answered what'll happen. In a game I run you'll lose even your generic lv1&2 paladin abilities.

neogod22 · Feb 20, 2018

Ok so out of the more of the story and back to game terms, choosing an oath at lvl 3 instead of 1 is designed so that you can get a feel of the character before making a final decision. In story terms, the game assumes this is what you've been training to become all your life. This really doesn't interfere with gameplay, because you should be lvl2 after your 1st session, and lvl 3 after your 2nd or 3rd. This is mainly designed to give new players time to get comfortable with the game before saying "ok I'm gonna play this kind of paladin." Or maybe if you were thinking you wanted to be say a paladin of devotion but find you would rather be vengeance.

Xetheral · Feb 21, 2018

neogod22 said:
Ok so out of the more of the story and back to game terms, choosing an oath at lvl 3 instead of 1 is designed so that you can get a feel of the character before making a final decision. In story terms, the game assumes this is what you've been training to become all your life. This really doesn't interfere with gameplay, because you should be lvl2 after your 1st session, and lvl 3 after your 2nd or 3rd. This is mainly designed to give new players time to get comfortable with the game before saying "ok I'm gonna play this kind of paladin." Or maybe if you were thinking you wanted to be say a paladin of devotion but find you would rather be vengeance.

"I was planning on taking Paladin of Devotion, but right before I hit level 3 I found out that my DM won't let me multiclass Devotion Paladin and Fiend Warlock. So instead I swore an Oath of Vengeance against my DM."

dco · Feb 21, 2018

Cap'n Kobold said:
The paladin has already spent their life training and devoting their soul to their cause just as much as a cleric is required to before they swear their oath.

I'm sure that that may be true for some settings. However it isn't required to be a cleric in 5e: There are 'deities' that are not Gods and that cannot make that sort of choices right there in the PHB. Its belief, not worship in the setting I use.
As pointed out to you several times earlier, its not just a simple oath any more than a spell is "simply words". In D&D, devoting your life and soul to something can, in some individuals, grant power. Not every worshipper is a cleric, not every martial artist is a fighter, not everyone who dedicates their life to a cause is a paladin.
The 'simple oath' that a paladin swears at 3rd level is the finalisation of the previous two paladin levels, plus however much of the character's life beforehand, of dedication and belief in their cause. If it helps, you can think of that as the source of a Paladin's powers rather than the oath itself, and the oath as merely a formalisation of the direction and cause that the Paladin is already serving.

Spells are pretty much the ability to bend reality, as are some of the other magical and supernatural abilities that paladin's get.

And independently of all their life training they get their divine power swearing an oath and they can lose it not following the oath. I find it dumb.

You are talking again about your setting, but the PHB is clear:
"Divine magic, as the name suggests, is the power of the gods, flowing from them into the world. Clerics are conduits for that power, manifesting it as miraculous effects. The gods don't grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling."

It doesn't change how a paladin gets his powers, he swears an oath and he has divine powers, he doesn't follow his Oath the DM decides what to do with the character, no need to sugar coat it, his previous training means nothing. Any NPC who learns to use magic can use magic, if he learns to use a weapon he can use a weapon, I'm not sure why NPCs who swear an oath and follow it should not have divine powers. As it is the easiest access ever to powers I'm not sure why people would not follow that path, if you could be a doctor only studing some days most people would try to be a doctor.

Debatable, spells are a part of the reality in a lot of fantasy worlds, nothing special. In any case it won't change how people get access to them, if it is as easy as saying hello a lot of people will use spells.

Paladin / Warlock Faith conflict query

Guest 6801328

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Xetheral

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lowkey13

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nswanson27

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Xetheral

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dco

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