Paladin / Warlock Faith conflict query

[cbwjm]

Well....

2e DMG ...

"It is common to find the paladin working in association with the clergy of his religion, but lone paladins, carrying their faith into the wildemess, also appear in the tales of bards." p. 18

"One important, and potentially life-saving combat ability available to priests and paladins is the ability to tum undead. This is a special power granted by the character's deity. Through the priest or paladin, the deity manifests a portion of its power, terrifying evil, undead creatures or blasting them right out of existence." p. 67

(See also, evil priests turning Paladins, p. 68)


From the PHB- the Paladin acquires and casts spells, and must abide by the rules for the Priest in doing so- under Priest, it states that the Priest can cast spells "primarily to further their god's aims[.]"
All excess money must be donated to "the church" (note- not a church, or a religious institution ... THE church).

The point of this isn't to be pedantic, BTW. There is always a huge difference between the game as written, and as played- perhaps moreso when looking back. There was a lot more murderhoboing going on than, um, careful attention to whether or not you were advancing St. Cuthbert's aims. But I would say two things regarding the game as played, regardless of the rules:

Most Paladins, were followers of one god. It was kind of sort of assumed, for the most part. IIRC, the character sheets had a space for deity, not deities.
Most tables, and most players, didn't do a whole lot with the deity thing. Unless it helped you kill MOAR ORCS!

Except they didn't need to follow a god. I read through the 2e paladin class the other day, their only real requirement was to be lawful good. They have to tithe but it doesn't have to be to a specific church, it doesn't even have to be a church at all it can be to any lawful good institution. They had no actual requirement in 2e to follow a god. If a paladins breaks his alignment, he just needs a lawful good cleric to atone, not a specific one. Following a specific god wasn't part of the class.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

And dragonlance. Gods dropped a mountain on their followers who strayed from the light and were basically forgotten before coming back a few hundred years later.

Sorry but the gods of Krynn were dicks who murdered millions because a few thousand who followed the Kingpriest had become arrogant and demanding. They then also stole up to "Heaven and Hell" every true cleric walking the world so that worship of them became impossible until they decided to let it return.

They are also the most meddlesome Deities in DnD, mostly because they had novels written with them as characters and that results in close meddling.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This goes back to the original Deities & Demigods, and perhaps farther.

I swear there would be no arguments about Paladins if we could all just collectively agree to ignore anything regarding them from before 4e.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Wiseblood]

Imagine being the knight under a king. Now imagine making a longstanding binding contract with someone else. Royalty gets a bad rap when it comes to disloyalty cosmic beings even moreso.

 

[DeanP]

My take? It depends on the oath, god and pact. I run Greyhawk. If an Oath of Devotion Paladin of Heironeous forms a pact with an angel in the service of Heironeous or even other divinities of law and good, I think there's synergy that the deity accepts. If the same paladin forms a pact with a fiend, say, Mammon? I think he's likely to break his oath, even in the very forging of the pact. If an Oath of Conquest Paladin serving Hextor forms a pact with some sort of an archdevil or a pit fiend, the relationship might be tolerable to Hextor. I think it all depends on the context and interrelationship of oath, god and pact.

 

[pemerton]

This is how the gods work in D&D in general, with the exception of Dark Sun and Ravenloft campaign settings where the gods don't exist.

Could you link the source for that claim please? Because I'm not entirely sure about Greyhawk, but I'm certain that Eberron's gods don't work like that.

I don't remember it being true in the Work of Greyhawk, but admittedly my memory is fuzzy and my knowledge of the setting -- such as it is -- comes from the AD&D box set and classic modules from that era. Come to think of it, I don't think it holds true for Eberron, either, to cite a more recent D&D world.

Nothing in the GH material that I can recall suggests this. Some of the Greater Gods, like Boccob, don't receive much worship; and some of the more popular gods, like St Cuthbert and Pholtus, are only Lesser Gods.

The first time I remember coming across the idea was an article in Dragon magazine - maybe issue 92, which would be c 1984, I think.

 

[ClaytonCross]

OK, how do you resolve the potential faith conflict for multiclassing warlock & paladin?

There is Zero conflict with a Nature Paladin and a Fey Patron Warlock

There is Zero conflict with an Oath Breaker Paladin and a Fiend patron Warlock

There is Zero conflict with any Paladin and The Old One Patrons accidently empowering your desire for more power to protect your allies. Which is part of how The Old One is described.

There is Zero conflict with almost any Paladin and the Celestial Paladin.

If you have an oath breaker you could have it breaking a good or evil oath...

A protection Paladin with a Fiend Patron for example could be a Paladin of Orcis and Have a Fiend Patron ... but evil

If you started as a warlock you could become a paladin to free yourself from your vow to your warlock patron.

In fact while there are some conflicts they are the minority.

 

[Satyrn]

Imagine being the knight under a king. Now imagine making a longstanding binding contract with someone else. Royalty gets a bad rap when it comes to disloyalty cosmic beings even moreso.

That's a cool analogy to show how it could work. Let me have a go at it:

1) I swear an oath of fealty to the king of the Britons, making me one the paladins who say "ni". It's a noble calling.

2) Then, I strike a pact with the Merchant of Venice. He keeps me supplied with arms for my soldiers, and in exchange I give him my daughter's soul hand. Marrying her off is a price I'm willing to pay for the power he's giving me, even if I'm obligated to keep the son in law happy enough with our deal.

3) Profit. Wait, unlike those blasted gnomes, I actually have a Step 2. Unless my oath to Arthur included a vow to have nothing to do with Venetian Merchants, I'd think he'd be happy I made that pact to strengthen myself and better serve him.