D&D (2024) They butchered the warlock in the new packet

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Too far with spells? If the ability works well as being cast a flexible numer of times, as with spell slots, or as a cantrip, and would benefit from the spell structure (borrowing all the rules of the spell system like action, duration, effect, whether it counts as magic/a spell for certain types of abilities), then why not create it as a spell, and lean on that existing system? The design has to be written anyway. You either place it in the spell section with similar designs, or you add the ability, plus all relevant side rules that answer the relevant questions into the class write-up, padding the page count of that section.
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As a comparison, I'd rather have a class ability or monster stat block reference a spell to look up, rather than write up that entire spell in the class or monster stat block.

Every time you make something a spell you make it inherently less unique, and it becomes just a part of a spell list. This makes the class using this less "specific", since now the ability is optional for this class.

This is why Eldritch Blast should obviously be a spell, because it shouldn't be optional. It's like a fighter: Weapon attacks for a fighter are not optional. Eldritch Blast is what the Warlock is designed for.

Sure you could argue that this flexibility is "good", but just go all the way then and consider what happens: If every class feature becomes a spell, then why even have a class system? The purpose of classes is to have some kind of archetype framework. If every feature is a spell, then every feature is optional and unless each spell is unique to each class then every class with a shared spell list is essentially the same class.

Secondly, and this is my even bigger objection: If you make everything into a spell then you are even further reinforcing the absurd martial caster disparity. Because now you have constructed a strictly magical spell-casting system that is exclusively for spell casters and then you have no similar system for non-casters. You have granted even more unnecessary flexibility to casters and you even allow them to opt out of trashy class features. I mean this system would never allow a fighter to opt-out of Indomitable, would it?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Too far with spells? If the ability works well as being cast a flexible numer of times, as with spell slots, or as a cantrip, and would benefit from the spell structure (borrowing all the rules of the spell system like action, duration, effect, whether it counts as magic/a spell for certain types of abilities), then why not create it as a spell, and lean on that existing system? The design has to be written anyway. You either place it in the spell section with similar designs, or you add the ability, plus all relevant side rules that answer the relevant questions into the class write-up, padding the page count of that section.
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As a comparison, I'd rather have a class ability or monster stat block reference a spell to look up, rather than write up that entire spell in the class or monster stat block.

I couldn't disagree more. When I am running things at the table I don't want to slow up the game by looking things up in another book, especially in combat. Flipping through the PHB is a non-starter from me. (All my homebrew character sheets contain the text of the spells, something which will quickly disabuse anyone of the notion 5e is "rules light"). And it's especially egregious on a monster where it's entirely possible that the monster is never seen again outside the combat.

If something is not a literal spell cast by a spellcaster it should not reference the spellcasting rules. Even if it is a spell cast by the spellcaster it actively harms the game if it is not right there in the statblock. At best the designer's laziness and miserliness with paper is putting more work unnecessarily onto the DM and making improvisation harder because they have the thing more thoroughly prepared.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Every time you make something a spell you make it inherently less unique, and it becomes just a part of a spell list. This makes the class using this less "specific", since now the ability is optional for this class.

This is why Eldritch Blast should obviously be a spell, because it shouldn't be optional. It's like a fighter: Weapon attacks for a fighter are not optional. Eldritch Blast is what the Warlock is designed for.

Sure you could argue that this flexibility is "good", but just go all the way then and consider what happens: If every class feature becomes a spell, then why even have a class system? The purpose of classes is to have some kind of archetype framework. If every feature is a spell, then every feature is optional and unless each spell is unique to each class then every class with a shared spell list is essentially the same class.

Secondly, and this is my even bigger objection: If you make everything into a spell then you are even further reinforcing the absurd martial caster disparity. Because now you have constructed a strictly magical spell-casting system that is exclusively for spell casters and then you have no similar system for non-casters. You have granted even more unnecessary flexibility to casters and you even allow them to opt out of trashy class features. I mean this system would never allow a fighter to opt-out of Indomitable, would it?

Spellcasting is a system that works and isn't going away. D&D magic isn't a real thing, so it can be depicted by a constructed mechanic without being tied to "reality" or "muh verisimilitude". It doesn't need to be compared to what a normal human can do with a weapon. It is balanced to D&D. There are people who would prefer spell points and other variants, but the spell system is tried and true and a part of D&D.

Martial characters can be simple if someone doesn't want to have to opt into a martial spell system. A universal martial power system is way more difficult because martial maneuvers and systems will always have to deal with different audiences who want vastly different designs to depict mundane acts. So many people want different things out of martial abilities.

• Some want it all at-will and flexible and be able to "do this all day"(Weapon Mastery does this by giving cantrip-level modifications to weapon attacks).
• Some want some want bigger "encounter" or "daily" powers, that stretch the perception of mundane, and are essentially "spells" under another name so they are more balanced against magic spells at varying levels. (Book of 9 Swords and 4E-style powers do this).
• Some like maneuvers powered by pools of endurance/energy (lots of Fighter subclasses do this, like Battlemaster's Maneuvers and the Arcane Archer's Arcane Shots, and the Rune Knight's Runes). These can exist as abilities rather than spells, because they don't have the baggage of the D&D spell system. Many like that.

But not everything needs to be a spell. Spellcaster powers can work well as spells if the spell system serves the design of that ability. However, something that doesn't take an action? Not a spell. Something only available to one subclass, or is only usable under a circumstance like Bladesong? It's not served well as a spell.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Spellcasting is a system that works and isn't going away.

Well the second part is unfortunately right.

The first? Eh. Not really. Eventually D&D is going to have to come up with a good spellcasting system and then actually keep it instead of running back to the corpse of Vance's work.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well the second part is unfortunately right.

The first? Eh. Not really. Eventually D&D is going to have to come up with a good spellcasting system and then actually keep it instead of running back to the corpse of Vance's work.

The ironic thing here is that 5e's spellcasting system is more like 3.5 psionics than pre-4e spellcasting.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Still not actually good though.

 

[Pedantic]

The ironic thing here is that 5e's spellcasting system is more like 3.5 psionics than pre-4e spellcasting.

I don't necessarily love how 3x handled the spontaneous/prepared divide (particularly the metamagic nonsense, it was fine to just let sorcerers cast quickened spells), but I do find myself missing having a clearer set of trade-offs and differentiations points between them.

That, and the more involved counterspelling. Having to build into it and prepare specific spells (or at least schools of spells) and the increased action cost/downsides of counterspelling via Dispel Magic made it significantly more engaging (if admittedly more complicated) system than the Counterspell spell in 5e.

 

[mellored]

The ironic thing here is that 5e's spellcasting system is more like 3.5 psionics than pre-4e spellcasting.

4e was a more Vance's than any previous edition. Everything was cast once and forget (except the at-wills)

Just with 2 different memorization rates.

 

[Vaalingrade]

4e was a more Vance's than any previous edition. Everything was cast once and forget (except the at-wills)

Just with 2 different memorization rates.

Encounter powers would like a word.

 

[payn]

Encounter powers would like a word.

They will have to wait until the next thread, I cant listen anymore in this one.