D&D (2024) Warlock Dips

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

And even potentially the WaFighter. Who cares about casting (although having Shield on your list is golden for a fighter). Thrown tridents are the weapon of choice here I think so that every throw comes with a Topple.

Sadly, INT as casting stat isn't an option for bladelocks, which limits synergy with Eldritch Knights. But as you point out there are still options here, and casting modifier doesn't matter much if you only cast defensive and buffing spells!

 

[Neonchameleon]

Sadly, INT as casting stat

I was thinking of going Echo Knight or possibly Rune Knight and throwing the trident. Pure carnage.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I know how you feel. I used to say to dippers (something along the lines of), "You sold YOUR SOUL for Eldritch Blast!? Souls come cheap these days."

Moving the subclass to level 3 removes that problem now, in my view.
I had always been unwilling to dip Warlock for just that reason. Now, though, that narrative obstacle is removed.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I was thinking about this yesterday, in fact.

I agree that Warlocks as presented here are very dip-worthy. It's actually quite nice -- Fighters have always been worth a level or two for many builds, and now Warlock and Barbarian are as well, in my view.

Is it too much? We'll have to see.

Two arcane list cantrips. Barring combo specific synergies & possible changes to cantrips I'd imagine these to often be something like guidance & resistance

There are lots of ways to get attack cantrips, and they are the only ones I would be concerned about here. For most builds, this will be an alternative and not the primary attack.

• A pact boon:

The Blade will be primary. It will be a good dip for base Wis classes (Cleric, Druid) and Cha-classes (Sorcerer, possibly Bard). More interesting, is it will allow things like a Wisdom-primary or Charisma-primary fighter. That's a win, in my books, because it leads to a greater diversity of builds.

Who potentially benefits most are Paladins, Rangers, etc., but it's not clear that they will be more effective than a rapier-build. Anything that reduces the importance of Dex increases the available builds, and is a good thing, for me.

As for the other pacts? All of them give access to a regular find familiar, but Chain gves you a super familiar (good for narrative, not overpowered sinceit has to move after your turn now); Book gives you rituals (which is on par with the Ritual Caster feat as presented earlier. Much less interesting than the 2014 Ritual caster, since you are stuck with level-1.

And the spellcasting is not meaningfully beyond what many races are given. A level-1 dip is desirable to many, but needed for few.

Now, at level 2 you get invocations. These are fun bells and whistles, now available without needing a pact with an extra planar entity. I'll go through your list, because we see these differently, I feel. I think different tables will see their values differently. I see these as fun, but not OP.

• Agonizing Blast: EB scales by warlock level, total nonissue. Great for no prereq invocation

Agreed. Better than a heavy crossbow, if that's what you want.

• Armor of Shadows: free mage armor casting without needing to prep or use a slot.

This benefit was previously available with a 1-level Sorcerer dip. Needing 2 in Warlock does not overpower it. Good for aesthetics, but not for optimization.

• Beast Speech:

Improves out of combat events. Good.

• Devil's Sight:"

Good for races without darkvision already, but probably not a go-to for those with. Not broken.

• Eldritch Spear: Links to EB & EB only scales by warlock level now

Dud for dippers (and for everyone?)

• Eyes of the Runekeeper: If an ability forces the GM to write everything not written in common in the form of code or riddle it's probably too good for the dip

Some DMs want their players to have fun. This is that -- a minor ability, less than a level-1 ritual. Not overoptomized, but fun for players.

• Hexer: 600ft range on hex & advantage on con saves to maintain concentration. Not sure how I feel about this but it's probably fine

Ha. I thought this one was potentially OP; makes it parallel to the level 1 Ranger ability Favoured Enemy. Fine.

• Lesson's of the First Ones: Gain a first level feat of your choice?... no this is way too good for part of a dip on top of everything else the dip grants. It should absolutely have a higher prerequisite even if that results in feat+something else

Which firslevel feats concern you? Lucky is the only one that concerns me.

• Mask of Many Faces: Disguise Self without expending spell slots?... this only gets better the higher level the PC with it gets. This should absolutely not be available at level 2

Compare the Changeling. Powerful, but not OP.

• Misty Visions: Cast Silent image without burning spell slots. cool, fits great for a very small part of a dip

Adds Fun.

• Repelling Blast: EB scales by warlock level, total nonissue. Great for no prereq invocation

Adds Fun, from time to time.

So yes, a 2-level dip comes away with some great Utility, but it's not clear to me that it's going to be worth it for most characters. I guess we'll see.

 

[tetrasodium]

I was thinking about this yesterday, in fact.

I agree that Warlocks as presented here are very dip-worthy. It's actually quite nice -- Fighters have always been worth a level or two for many builds, and now Warlock and Barbarian are as well, in my view.

Is it too much? We'll have to see.

There are lots of ways to get attack cantrips, and they are the only ones I would be concerned about here. For most builds, this will be an alternative and not the primary attack.

The Blade will be primary. It will be a good dip for base Wis classes (Cleric, Druid) and Cha-classes (Sorcerer, possibly Bard). More interesting, is it will allow things like a Wisdom-primary or Charisma-primary fighter. That's a win, in my books, because it leads to a greater diversity of builds.

Who potentially benefits most are Paladins, Rangers, etc., but it's not clear that they will be more effective than a rapier-build. Anything that reduces the importance of Dex increases the available builds, and is a good thing, for me.

As for the other pacts? All of them give access to a regular find familiar, but Chain gves you a super familiar (good for narrative, not overpowered sinceit has to move after your turn now); Book gives you rituals (which is on par with the Ritual Caster feat as presented earlier. Much less interesting than the 2014 Ritual caster, since you are stuck with level-1.

And the spellcasting is not meaningfully beyond what many races are given. A level-1 dip is desirable to many, but needed for few.

Now, at level 2 you get invocations. These are fun bells and whistles, now available without needing a pact with an extra planar entity. I'll go through your list, because we see these differently, I feel. I think different tables will see their values differently. I see these as fun, but not OP.

Agreed. Better than a heavy crossbow, if that's what you want.


This benefit was previously available with a 1-level Sorcerer dip. Needing 2 in Warlock does not overpower it. Good for aesthetics, but not for optimization.

Improves out of combat events. Good.


Good for races without darkvision already, but probably not a go-to for those with. Not broken.

Dud for dippers (and for everyone?)

Some DMs want their players to have fun. This is that -- a minor ability, less than a level-1 ritual. Not overoptomized, but fun for players.

Ha. I thought this one was potentially OP; makes it parallel to the level 1 Ranger ability Favoured Enemy. Fine.

Which firslevel feats concern you? Lucky is the only one that concerns me.

Compare the Changeling. Powerful, but not OP.

Adds Fun.

Adds Fun, from time to time.

So yes, a 2-level dip comes away with some great Utility, but it's not clear to me that it's going to be worth it for most characters. I guess we'll see.

You are looking at all the prerequisite NONE invocations on their own. That's the difference. A warlock dip gets two of those plus up to eighteen levels of something else. Straight & primary warlocks aren't hurt by needing to swap out a tier appropriate prereq NONE invocation for a more full featured one in a few levels (ie level five) or having it grow a bit with warlock levels any more than fighter barbarian or paladin is by not getting extra attack at level two alongside their level two abilities

 

[Kobold Stew]

You are looking at all the prerequisite NONE invocations on their own. That's the difference. A warlock dip gets two of those plus up to eighteen levels of something else. Straight & primary warlocks aren't hurt by needing to swap out a tier appropriate prereq NONE invocation for a more full featured one in a few levels (ie level five) or having it grow a bit with warlock levels any more than fighter barbarian or paladin is by not getting extra attack at level two alongside their level two abilities

I feel we've had this conversation before.

You are correct -- I am not interested in what you get by level 20. There are other, small, easy fixes that could make dipping unattractive if you assume all characters are getting to 20 and want to discourage multiclassing. Nerfing interesting abilities that are fun at lower levels is not the answer, though.

The dipper does not have the opportunity to swap invocations. The ones you pick at level 2 are the ones that stay.

 

[tetrasodium]

I feel we've had this conversation before.

You are correct -- I am not interested in what you get by level 20. There are other, small, easy fixes that could make dipping unattractive if you assume all characters are getting to 20 and want to discourage multiclassing. Nerfing interesting abilities that are fun at lower levels is not the answer, though.

The dipper does not have the opportunity to swap invocations. The ones you pick at level 2 are the ones that stay.

Level five eleven and so on aew along the way I those other eighteen levels & can't be ignored

 

[Sir Brennen]

I prefer "Rangelock" and "Fightlock".

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

So, one thing about the playtest Warlock that hasn't received much attention in the shadow of its more controversial features is that, depending upon your pact boon, you can now use Charisma, Wisdom or Intelligence as your primary spellcasting stat. That makes a number of potential multiclassing options more viable, and with Eldritch Invocations still coming in at 2nd level, a 1-2 level dip in this class seems like it could be pretty tasty.

off hand 1 level dip to pact of the blade for any cha caster (so bard, pally, sorcerer) and pact of the tome for wizards is almost comicly too good.

"Oh my wizard can grab two more cantrips and add my int mod to damage with all my cantrips for a 1 level dip"
"Oh my valor bard can dump str and use cha to attack with my new summonable cha attack sword?!?"

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

It sort of feels that, thematically, paladin smites shouldn't work with pact of the blade. You only gain the new attack stat by invoking the power of some unearthly being while you only get to smite by invoking your devotion to a different being. It kind of feels like they should be either / or but not both.

a paladin of an elven god that makes a fey pact with an exarch of that god seems right on theme