D&D (2024) They butchered the warlock in the new packet

[Vaalingrade]

They will have to wait until the next thread, I cant listen anymore in this one.

Wait five minutes.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Spellcasting is a system that works and isn't going away. D&D magic isn't a real thing, so it can be depicted by a constructed mechanic without being tied to "reality" or "muh verisimilitude". It doesn't need to be compared to what a normal human can do with a weapon. It is balanced to D&D. There are people who would prefer spell points and other variants, but the spell system is tried and true and a part of D&D.

Martial characters can be simple if someone doesn't want to have to opt into a martial spell system. A universal martial power system is way more difficult because martial maneuvers and systems will always have to deal with different audiences who want vastly different designs to depict mundane acts. So many people want different things out of martial abilities.

• Some want it all at-will and flexible and be able to "do this all day"(Weapon Mastery does this by giving cantrip-level modifications to weapon attacks).
• Some want some want bigger "encounter" or "daily" powers, that stretch the perception of mundane, and are essentially "spells" under another name so they are more balanced against magic spells at varying levels. (Book of 9 Swords and 4E-style powers do this).
• Some like maneuvers powered by pools of endurance/energy (lots of Fighter subclasses do this, like Battlemaster's Maneuvers and the Arcane Archer's Arcane Shots, and the Rune Knight's Runes). These can exist as abilities rather than spells, because they don't have the baggage of the D&D spell system. Many like that.

But not everything needs to be a spell. Spellcaster powers can work well as spells if the spell system serves the design of that ability. However, something that doesn't take an action? Not a spell. Something only available to one subclass, or is only usable under a circumstance like Bladesong? It's not served well as a spell.

I can't decipher this comment. You do not seem to respond to my point: class abilities should remain class abilities because class identity is important. If you want to eliminate class identity, then why even have a class system?

A universal martial power system is trivial to design. D&D 4e has already done it.

Caster classes in 5e already suffer from an identity problem. We shouldn't make it worse by making important features into spells.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I can't decipher this comment. You do not seem to respond to my point: class abilities should remain class abilities because class identity is important. If you want to eliminate class identity, then why even have a class system?

A universal martial power system is trivial to design. D&D 4e has already done it.

Caster classes in 5e already suffer from an identity problem. We shouldn't make it worse by making important features into spells.

Class-specific spells that are class abilities (Eldritch Blast, Chaos Bolt, Sorcerous Burst, or Arcane Eruption) are unique, exclusive, class abilities that reinforce class identity. They are just presented best by spell design.

If it serves the class ability to benefit from spell design rules (using slots to cast, and if casting time, duration, combat efficacy all make sense for a spell), then it should be a spell. That doesn't contribute to an identity problem. There is nothing that makes a non-spell "class ability" inherently better than a spell-designed class ability.

 

[Incenjucar]

Class-specific spells that are class abilities (Eldritch Blast, Chaos Bolt, Sorcerous Burst, or Arcane Eruption) are unique, exclusive, class abilities that reinforce class identity. They are just presented best by spell design.

If it serves the class ability to benefit from spell design rules (using slots to cast, and if casting time, duration, combat efficacy all make sense for a spell), then it should be a spell. That doesn't contribute to an identity problem. There is nothing that makes a non-spell "class ability" inherently better than a spell-designed class ability.

If it's a spell, it can potentially be used by abilities that apply to any spell, such as wish, and is able to benefit from synergies which may force designs to be more narrow, lest we repeat the Locate City Bomb.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Class-specific spells that are class abilities (Eldritch Blast, Chaos Bolt, Sorcerous Burst, or Arcane Eruption) are unique, exclusive, class abilities that reinforce class identity. They are just presented best by spell design.

If it serves the class ability to benefit from spell design rules (using slots to cast, and if casting time, duration, combat efficacy all make sense for a spell), then it should be a spell. That doesn't contribute to an identity problem. There is nothing that makes a non-spell "class ability" inherently better than a spell-designed class ability.

I'm going to disagree with your examples. Spell attack cantrips don't actually benefit from spell design rules. They don't use slots to cast, and make attack rolls where casting time and duration are just dead weight and thus are actively harmed by spell design rules. It's a simple ranged attack both of them make.

And the second reason to disagree is that I do not believe that Sorcerous Burst or Arcane Eruption actually do reinforce class identity. I believe they impose a class identity that actively detracts from the subclass identity for many sorcerer subclasses by making damage type an in-character rather than an out of character choice (I'm a Storm Sorcerer but can still cast an acidic arcane eruption?). And as such should be spells because they should be optional.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I'm going to disagree with your examples. Spell attack cantrips don't actually benefit from spell design rules. They don't use slots to cast, and make attack rolls where casting time and duration are just dead weight and thus are actively harmed by spell design rules. It's a simple ranged attack both of them make.

And the second reason to disagree is that I do not believe that Sorcerous Burst or Arcane Eruption actually do reinforce class identity. I believe they impose a class identity that actively detracts from the subclass identity for many sorcerer subclasses by making damage type an in-character rather than an out of character choice (I'm a Storm Sorcerer but can still cast an acidic arcane eruption?). And as such should be spells because they should be optional.

* Regarding referencing the PH for monster spells:
"I couldn't disagree more. When I am running things at the table I don't want to slow up the game by looking things up in another book, especially in combat. Flipping through the PHB is a non-starter from me.

And I think it makes sense for a spellcaster's magical spell attack to be a spell. It's more than the casting time, target/AoE rules, and other aspects of the stat block of the spell. It makes sense for magic resistance, saves vs. spells, silence, and counterspell to apply.

And the Wizard Spells to modify and create spells make sense as spells. They just need to be tweaked.

But I can tell we're going to go around in circles on this one.

But looking at your other recent commentary about not wanting to look in other books, it looks like we would agree that Druid wildshape shouldn't reference the Monster Manual. Too bad templates are being rolled back.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And I think it makes sense for a spellcaster's magical spell attack to be a spell. It's more than the casting time, target/AoE rules, and other aspects of the stat block of the spell. It makes sense for magic resistance, saves vs. spells, silence, and counterspell to apply.

Then you need to change how the spells in question work. Neither magic resistance nor chaos bolt are affected by magic resistance or saves vs spells. They make attack rolls instead, and as such offer no saving throw (and Magic Resistance only gives advantage to saving throws).

And I emphatically do not believe that the most basic spells should be shut down by Silence; they might make a noise but if you're spamming them as often as a warlock spams Eldritch Blast you shouldn't actually need to speak magical words every time you do it. Saying "hadouken" every few seconds in a fighting game might be fun - but I'd rather the warlocks be able to talk in combat without it being too ridiculous.

Which leaves Counterspell as literally the only reason you've listed that I agree with to weigh down every single warlock character with their basic attack needing the spell rules. In which case I would suggest tweaking the rules for Counterspell rather than warping who knows how many other abilities for the one spell.

But looking at your other recent commentary about not wanting to look in other books, it looks like we would agree that Druid wildshape shouldn't reference the Monster Manual. Too bad templates are being rolled back.

And too bad that the version of templates presented was about as bad as it could have been, leading to the survey saying people don't want this because the version was bad.