About the War Cleric......

CTurbo said:

I just read over the thread "Best War Cleric" and it had me thinking, but that thread was an older thread that recently got necro'd so I figured I would just make a new thread about it.

It seems that the War Cleric is generally regarded as lacking when compared to some of the other "melee" focused Clerics, or maybe it's just lacking in melee in general.

So is there a way that it could be "fixed" or at least a way to make it better without overdoing it?

Does it even need to be fixed? I know some people are fine with it the way it is, but I've seen so many more people complaining about it, and from what I've seen in gameplay, they end up just relying on spells in the mid to higher levels anyway.

For starters, I think that maybe War should have been the only domain that should have gotten full weapons and armor proficiency. Well, I can see letting Life have full armor proficiency but that's it. Just those two. That would have helped things a bit I think.

I do like the idea of a Cleric of war.

I think the most obvious fix would be to simply give the domain a 2nd attack even if it's at a higher level than 5 or 6. Maybe level 11? At some point, it really needs a full second attack, and that is with keeping the Wis mod bonus attack the same. Some say that this is a little too OP, and maybe it is.

Another think I came up with is to allow the War domain to use it's Divine Strike on the bonus attack too. That would really up the melee damage.

Another idea would be to have some kind of feature that allows for a reaction attack similar to the Sentinel feat, which is so good on a Cleric.

What does everybody think?

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CTurbo said:

I just read over the thread "Best War Cleric" and it had me thinking, but that thread was an older thread that recently got necro'd so I figured I would just make a new thread about it.

It seems that the War Cleric is generally regarded as lacking when compared to some of the other "melee" focused Clerics, or maybe it's just lacking in melee in general.

So is there a way that it could be "fixed" or at least a way to make it better without overdoing it?

Does it even need to be fixed? I know some people are fine with it the way it is, but I've seen so many more people complaining about it, and from what I've seen in gameplay, they end up just relying on spells in the mid to higher levels anyway.

For starters, I think that maybe War should have been the only domain that should have gotten full weapons and armor proficiency. Well, I can see letting Life have full armor proficiency but that's it. Just those two. That would have helped things a bit I think.

I do like the idea of a Cleric of war.

I think the most obvious fix would be to simply give the domain a 2nd attack even if it's at a higher level than 5 or 6. Maybe level 11? At some point, it really needs a full second attack, and that is with keeping the Wis mod bonus attack the same. Some say that this is a little too OP, and maybe it is.

Another think I came up with is to allow the War domain to use it's Divine Strike on the bonus attack too. That would really up the melee damage.

Another idea would be to have some kind of feature that allows for a reaction attack similar to the Sentinel feat, which is so good on a Cleric.

What does everybody think?

Click to expand...

CapnZapp said:

I think you need to let go of the notion of a melee Cleric.

The notion of a class fighting like a fighter and casting like a caster is too good.

And if it can't fight like a fighter, it's much better off casting like a caster.

In that way any melee offensive is wasted.

Consider the tempest Cleric. It's excellent even though it basically never fights with its weapon. This is because as a caster you don't need any martial offensive; what you appreciate is the martial defense (the armor, the rebuke abilities, etc)

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CTurbo said:

I know the Cleric class is never going to be on par with the Fighter or Paladin in melee nor is it meant to be.

My problem with the War Cleric is, it's not even the best Cleric at being a War Cleric. I LOVE the Tempest domain and yes it is a great example of a better melee Cleric.

I just feel like the War's features and mechanics could be better at what it's supposed to be. Sure the extra bonus attack is HUGE at really low levels, but it becomes quickly irrelevant. It's even sadder than a spell that EVERY Cleric gets, Spiritual Weapon out shines it for 75% of your career and often by a long shot at higher levels. Other Domains similar features stay relevant for their entire careers.

The War domain is only saved by the actual core class being so solid from top to bottom.

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1. remove heavy armor from every domain but War. This obviously shifts the problem to Tempest (Forge etc) but it does ensure War gets a niche of its own
2. re-value War Priest to be the ribbon ability it really is. Un-restrict it, and give its uses per day to War God's Blessing to give the entire subclass extra oomph. That is:
   War Priest: use freely at-will
   War God's Blessing (not a channel divinity ability): You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier. You regain all uses when you finish a long rest.
   In summary - War Priest is at-will, sending the signal it isn't that powerful (it basically allows you to two-weapon fight while using a shield in any round you don't cast a spell. Put otherwise, you get to attack with two weapons (really one and the same) while still enjoying your +2 AC shield bonus - but the cost is that you don't get to cast a spell that round. If you look at the benefit and cost this way (getting +2 AC for not casting a spell), you should see how expensive the ability really is*, and why it quickly becomes useless)
   War God's Blessing doesn't expend your channel divinity, which frees up its use for other things (which would otherwise seldom see any use, since giving +10 to a Paladin or Rogue is obviously better than giving it to yourself)
   Finally, the entire subclass gets a very attractive 5 charges of +10 a day, which is the real upgrade here.

CapnZapp said:

[*]re-value War Priest to be the ribbon ability it really is. Un-restrict it, and give its uses per day to War God's Blessing to give the entire subclass extra oomph. That is:
War Priest: use freely at-will
...
In summary - War Priest is at-will, sending the signal it isn't that powerful (it basically allows you to two-weapon fight while using a shield in any round you don't cast a spell. Put otherwise, you get to attack with two weapons (really one and the same) while still enjoying your +2 AC shield bonus - but the cost is that you don't get to cast a spell that round. If you look at the benefit and cost this way (getting +2 AC for not casting a spell), you should see how expensive the ability really is*, and why it quickly becomes useless)

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