1st Level Cleric Features: War vs. Order

Sword of Spirit · Apr 15, 2018

A thought occurs to me.

I remember the Neverwinter Nights computer game had something called the Community Expansion Pack (if I recall). Basically a large amount of content created by fans for the purpose of mod creators and players to have a common core of adjustments to work with. I also think of the common phenomenon of an Unofficial Patch for a variety of computer games. In both cases, there is a wide (not total, but wide) agreement between a bunch of people on some basic changes that need to be made, and new people to the game who want a more refined experience can apply that patch and know it is generally agreed on to be worth it.

Here's a crazy idea: D&D 5e Community House Rules Pack.

It might be impossible to get enough consensus. But is it worth a try?

Gardens & Goblins · Apr 15, 2018

Sword of Spirit said:
A thought occurs to me.

I remember the Neverwinter Nights computer game had something called the Community Expansion Pack (if I recall). Basically a large amount of content created by fans for the purpose of mod creators and players to have a common core of adjustments to work with. I also think of the common phenomenon of an Unofficial Patch for a variety of computer games. In both cases, there is a wide (not total, but wide) agreement between a bunch of people on some basic changes that need to be made, and new people to the game who want a more refined experience can apply that patch and know it is generally agreed on to be worth it.

Here's a crazy idea: D&D 5e Community House Rules Pack.

It might be impossible to get enough consensus. But is it worth a try?

I think the general counter to such initiatives is, 'Well ya know? You can homebrew as much as your table needs!' Typically followed by, 'Why do you need official recognition?'. Granted, I find such arguments miss the point but hey!

The challenge with 'community rules' is simply - which community? What's the bar for entry? Can anyone add a rule? Does their need to be, as you point out, a consensus from a certain number of folks? Certain folks? Does such a supplement try to include rules that reflect all sides? Only one? How would it be chosen? (For an example, check out the conflicting opinions in the various 'Warlord' threads.)

It can get messy really quickly - and I reckon in this scenario, homebrewing would save a lot of cost, energy and drama.

Which is why, if there was to be a push for updates/refinement/tweaks from the existing 5e system, it would need to come from the authority on the matter - the official design team. And I don't they're business model readily embraces such as much as say, releasing new shiny things for sale*.

*Even in the computer games industry there is a real lack of projects willing to refine existing game systems, with the focus being on putting out something new and shiny (though arguably, this is a trend that is shifting and what constitutes as 'new' is a matter of debate. Is PUBG 'new'? Or is it built on the bones of -insert-old-fps-here?).

Eubani · Apr 15, 2018

The devs have said from the beginning that errata will only be for things like typos and poor wording. Everything else will be left alone and something will be added. A good example of this is the under performing Bladelock causing the creation of the Hexblade Subclass, one could say that the Brute is the answer to feedback about the Champion.

Gardens & Goblins · Apr 15, 2018

Eubani said:
The devs have said from the beginning that errata will only be for things like typos and poor wording.

Aye, and I don't think this makes for a better game system. A wise business model? Perhaps - not my responsibility. I just.. really like R&D

CapnZapp · Apr 15, 2018

WayOfTheFourElements said:
So domains personifies Ares (Mars), then? Certainly not Order.

Sorry, what?

WayOfTheFourElements · Apr 15, 2018

Sorry

If War is considered obsolete and replaced by Order. which domains personifies Ares (Mars), then? Certainly not Order.

CapnZapp · Apr 15, 2018

Blue said:
War clerics specialty seems to be about personal excellence in combat. This is taken from their weapon proficiencies, their features, their channel divinity, and a number of their domain spell selection. This will be the basis if Order clerics overshadow War clerics at what the War domain is intended to do.

Order clerics don't have martial weapon proficiency. With the exception of the generic Divine Strike that half the domains get, they get no class features to improve their own combat ability. Of their domain spells, the only combat buff is Heroism, to ignore the frightened condition and gain a few temp HPs - not a huge boost and not self only.

Looking at this, the Order cleric in no way seems to represent that it is replacing the War cleric, there is really no overlap in the thrust of the war domain and the thrust of the order domain.

Can they do other nifty things that may be more powerful? Sure. So can other domains. War cleric is on the low end of the cleric domain power curve.

Are they positioned to replace the War domain at what War does? Nope.

You seem to labor under the misunderstanding the War Cleric needs its specific domain powers to perform its "war" duties.

And more specifically, its converse: that other Clerics can't do "war duty" since they lack them.

This is simply untrue.

The Cleric chassi is a strong base. The War domain adds relatively little on top of that. It stands to reason a War Cleric will rely much on its base Cleric abilities.

Now, the Order Cleric has all the same base power.

Are you really trying to make us believe the War Cleric only does "war" through its domain powers, and that the Order Cleric (or, a Forge Cleric for that matter) can't work as a reskinned War Cleric and do that job well?!

As for myself, I'm going to limit myself to this:

The level 1 Order domain ability is an excellent replacement for the weak, conflicted War Priest ability, especially if you rule the War Cleric can use it on self only.

It wouldn't surprise me though if I could build an Order Cleric but describe it as a War Cleric, have it act all "warry", and be better at that job than the original!

Paul Farquhar · Apr 15, 2018

1) Order is not intended to replace War. It has been around as a domain/sphere since 2nd edition alongside War. However, this version is intended as a thought experiment to rebuild a 4e warlord as a cleric subclass.

2) Order is overpowered in its current form. That's why things are run through UA first.

3) War is not "bad" in general. It's excellent at low level and pretty much the same as all other clerics at higher level. People QQ about it because they want to play a full caster gish.

CapnZapp · Apr 15, 2018

Gardens & Goblins said:
Which is a shame, really. And I feel they're missing a trick. Though it does depend on their relationship with 5e.

With the proliferation of digital media and tools, they could refine the 5e game system, making it simply better. Much better - They have access to a (seemingly) ever-growing number of potential playtesters and the UA format is relatively cheap while promising great returns (unpaid testers helping to polish a product that gets sold back to them? Pretty smooth!) As far as iterative design practice goes, you couldn't ask for more. They could design, test, get feedback and refine till the system was something truly special. No need for a 6e, or any other editions - just keep the cycle going until its Xth generation, stick a fork in it & done.

Of course, as 5e also exists - and depends (though to how much and for how much longer, I don't pretend to know) on physical copies, which obviously can't be amended after they're published. They could release updates online though... would anyone buy a product they know isn't 'complete'? And how many customers would simply hold out till generation X of the rules, then buy the 'final' version? Things to consider - not insurmountable but still, they'd require a different business model to the one there is now. And seemingly, they're on to a winner, so why change the tune while its 'working'? It'd be one heck of a risk.

Still, I would appreciate and support if they did release revision for content already released. Much as I like new shiny things - and I'm sure they help secure sales through new shiny books & products - I would enjoy a better system, and respect a demonstrated effort of working towards one.

My personal hunch: they're saving all of that for a new edition, for when sales start to dry up.

No reason to polish the current material when they can sell it to us later...

Blue · Apr 15, 2018

CapnZapp said:
Are you really trying to make us believe the War Cleric only does "war" through its domain powers, and that the Order Cleric (or, a Forge Cleric for that matter) can't work as a reskinned War Cleric and do that job well?!

I am speaking strictly mechanically. If you want to reskin another cleric domain as a cleric of war, go ahead.

Speaking only mechanically, all clerics share the same chassis. That can't be used as a point of differentiation between domains. So looking at the mechanics of the domain that was published, the specifics of what the war domain is meant to represent is personal excellence in battle. Again, this is irregardless of what the setting or other fluff describe, the mechanical expression in the rules of the War Domain is this.

So, if you want to know if an Order cleric can replace a War cleric mechanically, the question is are they a better personal warrior under the rules. Which has a clear answer of no. That's the scope of my answer.

In a different scope, such as going with the definition of a War cleric for a specific deity or setting, the answer can easily be yes. I don't think the mechanics do a good job of describing "War", since to me "War" is done with large numbers of combatants per side and the mechanics of the war domain don't fit that.

Does that answer sufficiently?

1st Level Cleric Features: War vs. Order

Sword of Spirit

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Gardens & Goblins

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Eubani

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Gardens & Goblins

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CapnZapp

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WayOfTheFourElements

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CapnZapp

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Paul Farquhar

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CapnZapp

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Blue

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