1st Level Cleric Features: War vs. Order

[Paul Farquhar]

It's perhaps a good idea to actually read up on the gods in the campaign setting you are using...

 

[CapnZapp]

I am speaking strictly mechanically. If you want to reskin another cleric domain as a cleric of war, go ahead.

Speaking only mechanically, all clerics share the same chassis. That can't be used as a point of differentiation between domains. So looking at the mechanics of the domain that was published, the specifics of what the war domain is meant to represent is personal excellence in battle. Again, this is irregardless of what the setting or other fluff describe, the mechanical expression in the rules of the War Domain is this.

So, if you want to know if an Order cleric can replace a War cleric mechanically, the question is are they a better personal warrior under the rules. Which has a clear answer of no. That's the scope of my answer.

In a different scope, such as going with the definition of a War cleric for a specific deity or setting, the answer can easily be yes. I don't think the mechanics do a good job of describing "War", since to me "War" is done with large numbers of combatants per side and the mechanics of the war domain don't fit that.

Does that answer sufficiently?

I still don't like how you unequivocally conclude Order can't replace War.

I would say the Order level 1 ability does a much better job at warpriesting than what the actual War domain grants, assuming you tweak it to "self" instead of "ally".

In fact, we just had a discussion on the wonkiness of War Priest! The Order L1 ability (given self) is precisely what the doctor ordered!

 

[TerraDave]

Tempest is the main "melee" domain and in that sense a "replacement" for war.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Tempest is the main "melee" domain and in that sense a "replacement" for war.

Still the Zeus domains. What's the effective Ares domain?

 

[Leatherhead]

Define effective. Planeshift has the Strength and Valor domains. Which are similar to War, but also slightly different.

 

[Blue]

I still don't like how you unequivocally conclude Order can't replace War.

Can you unpack where you don't like it? Since I've explained several times that my "unequivocal conclusion" is solely for if the Order domain outdoes the War domain in the arena defined by the War domain mechanically, I assume that you are actually addressing what I'm saying and not looking elsewhere like what you think the War domain "should" be.

My conclusion was from the weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, War Priest feature, Channel Divinity, Divine Strike, Avatar of Battle, and from the War domain spells that the War priest, AS DESCRIBED MECHANICALLY IN 5E, is defined by being personally good at combat.

Again, this does not cover what other notions we have from god, setting, or brought in from the word "War", what it should be. I'm personally not a fan of it - War to me should focus on mass combat, not the cleric as a single weapon-wielding hero.

So, before we go any further - do you disagree with either my method of determining what is mechanically supported by the War domain, or with my conclusions on that?

Then I looked at not the shared cleric chassis, but just what abilities the Order cleric is given.

For personal weapon fighting, they have heavy armor proficiency (shared by a numebr fo other cleric domains) and Divine Strike (also shared). Both of these are War domain features as well, so they are a push. However, the Voice of Authority, Channel Divinity, Order's Dominion, and Order's Wrath features do not make the Order cleric excel at personal combat, so while being potent abilities and Voice of Authority working better for the concept of a War domain, none of them support personal melee excellence that is the defining mechanical aspect of the War domain.

Their domain list has a single buff, which is not self only or particularly powerful, and no direct damage spells. It's a good spell list, and much like many domains will affect the course of battle, but it also does not support the concept of personal melee excellence as well as the War domain's list does.

All in all, when taken within the mechanically supported definition of the War domain as personal combat excellence, the Order domain does not match.

I would say the Order level 1 ability does a much better job at warpriesting than what the actual War domain grants, assuming you tweak it to "self" instead of "ally".

In fact, we just had a discussion on the wonkiness of War Priest! The Order L1 ability (given self) is precisely what the doctor ordered!

Yes, if you change the target of things that explicitly do not target the Order cleric and house rule to reverse them, you do have a power that would fit well on a War cleric. Since the Order cleric does not have that self-targetting power however that's not a useful argument. If I houseruled Barbarian's Reckless Attack to use Dex it would be great for Rogues - but it's not, so I can't say that a Barbarian dip will give rogues Advantage for Dex-based sneak attacks.