Psion class (Mearls, Happy Fun Hour)

Sword of Spirit said:

Because some people missed it, I'm going to clarify the reason for the point I was making about telekinesis and telepathy both needing to be in psion.

As of the start of this thread, Mike Mearl's idea was 4 Psion subclasses, which included telekinesis but not telepathy, and telepathy was in a wizard subclass.

Then he switched it around, so there were still 4 Psion subclasses, except now they included telepathy, but not telekinesis, which was now in a wizard subclass.

It's like he's decided you can only have 4 subclasses for Psion.

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I missed him shunting the TK over to Wizard in the lastest episode. I'm going to have to re-watch it. I agree both Telepathy and TK should be Psion sub-classes. Way more iconic than Constructor or Metamorph...

Salthorae said:

I think the biggest issue that is at the heart of what is being tossed back and forth is that MM is trying to design something that will be 1) easy enough for new players to use and tackle, but also 2) is acceptable to the hardcore long time gamers.

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That's true of everything in 5e down to the illos and use of white space. (that was just an exaggeration for rhetorical effect, I know the illos are nicer this time around; and I've made no comparison in the use of white space, point is just, even trivial stuff could get the classic treatment)

But, really, optional rules, in quixotically-named supplements, don't have to concern themselves so much with being accessible. The PH has that covered.

I love the distinct mechanics that Psionics had in previous editions... but it complicated things greatly ....

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The game's not exactly simple, now, though, and optional modules in the DMG, if taken together, would blow complexity through the roof. For those who want a psionic now and then, but don't want separate mechanics, a Sorcerer sub-class or re-skinned GOO warlock might do the trick, but for those who /want psionics/ a separate system has always been part of that (I don't even have to append the usual 'except for 4e' to that!).

Some of the ideas of what Psionics are, is based on Siddhis spiritual powers in Hinduism and various philosophies/religions derived from it such as some Buddhist or Western "New Age" Sects. These include abilities such as levitating, changing ones size or weight, mastery of the body and it's form and so on. Siddhi in this concept would simply be the Sanskrit word for "Discipline".

What it sounds like is the Psion is going to have talents, basically cantrips, that can be enhanced via “spells”. Like, he’ll have a teleport Cantrip. Concentrate on the Cantrip and you can teleport 10 ft as an action. Now, there will be spells, or disciplines, that augment that. Increase by 10 ft per spell slot, or whatever. Allow an attack or explosion when reappearing. Whatever. But they’ll be tacked on to the Cantrip, which will take the place of the current Psionic focus. They’ll just have a feature that allows them to concentrate on two things at once, which is what the Focus was trying to do anyway.

So, a telekinesis Cantrip That is basically Mage Hand, but can then be augmented by spell slots in various ways. A precognition Cantrip that can be increased in scope through the use of spell slots.

(Replace Cantrip with talent, and spell slots with psi points, it doesn’t matter at this point)

This will give the Psion a unique play style from the other classes, I think, and is a good way to go.

tglassy said:

What it sounds like is the Psion is going to have talents, basically cantrips, that can be enhanced via “spells”. Like, he’ll have a teleport Cantrip. Concentrate on the Cantrip and you can teleport 10 ft as an action. Now, there will be spells, or disciplines, that augment that. Increase by 10 ft per spell slot, or whatever. Allow an attack or explosion when reappearing. Whatever. But they’ll be tacked on to the Cantrip, which will take the place of the current Psionic focus. They’ll just have a feature that allows them to concentrate on two things at once, which is what the Focus was trying to do anyway.

So, a telekinesis Cantrip That is basically Mage Hand, but can then be augmented by spell slots in various ways. A precognition Cantrip that can be increased in scope through the use of spell slots.

(Replace Cantrip with talent, and spell slots with psi points, it doesn’t matter at this point)

This will give the Psion a unique play style from the other classes, I think, and is a good way to go.

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I'm apprehensive, but it might work.

Tony Vargas said:

And, seriously, I think fans of psionics /want/ the mechanical distinctions, every prior version of psionics has had 'em - "power points," for instance, at the absolute least.

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Furthermore, I think it's important to justify the mechanical distinctions. The designers of the psion need to think about what you can do with power points to make them play as differently as possible from spells. This means not using the spell point system we see in the DMG, which was engineered to match the pacing of the original spell slot system as closely as possible. If you're gonna do that, why abandon the slot system in the first place?

For example, a major consequence of power points is that you can spam your highest-level abilities. The DMG system specifically forbade doing this to preserve the intended balance of the spells. But a psionic power point system should lean into it instead. What possibilities does this distinction open up? Take advantage of them!

The whole concept of 5e is bounding from a mechanical standpoint. if you ignore the restrictions on higher level slots, then someone at 20th level could cast 10 wishes in a day. I get that maybe Psionics won't have wish, and so the threat of that is lessened, but still. I'm not against the DMG spell point rules, though it doesn't make sense that you can't ever cast 2x 6th or 2x 7th levels as a normal spell slot caster could. I would push the 1/day limit up to 8th/9th.

Even with the RAW in the DMG you can use/cast 1x 6/7/8/9, 12x 5th levels, and a couple of smaller spells. If you expanded it out and let someone blow all their points on up to 7th level abilities you could cast 13 7th level spells... that is... a lot.

That is still different and flavorful enough from standard casting to make it something different while not that different.

To be clear, when I say "do it like the EK", I don't mean "give the EK a fresh coat of paint". Rather I mean "use a fighter subclass, and make it a "1/3 psion" ". I fully expect and hope for the psionics mechanics to be distinct, flavorful and useful.

The reason why I don't think it needs it own class is because there is no "arcane warrior" full class either. If you really want to be a 50/50 fighter mage... multi-class fighter mage. Done and done. The EK allows for a fighter with a bit of magic, and for that magic to be well integrated into the role. I hope they can do the same with a well designed sub-class.

That being said, all of this depends on the psionics mechanics themselves to be well made. If they are pants, the subclasses will suck too.

Salthorae said:

The whole concept of 5e is bounding from a mechanical standpoint. if you ignore the restrictions on higher level slots, then someone at 20th level could cast 10 wishes in a day. I get that maybe Psionics won't have wish, and so the threat of that is lessened, but still. I'm not against the DMG spell point rules, though it doesn't make sense that you can't ever cast 2x 6th or 2x 7th levels as a normal spell slot caster could. I would push the 1/day limit up to 8th/9th.

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Given the way warlocks work and various other things, I would surmise that WotC sees a strong qualitative distinction between 1st-5th-level magic and 6th-level-plus magic. That's clearly where the restriction in the spell point rules comes from. A full caster's eventual ability to get multiple 6th- and 7th-level slots, at the very highest of levels, should probably be regarded as an extremely qualified exception to the rule as a reward for getting that far, and not to be taken as precedent without careful consideration. If we're basing power points on the spell slot system, then as with the warlock, I think a 1x restriction on 6th-level-plus slots is inevitable.

But if we're basing power points on the spell slot system, then really we should just use the spell slot system. If we're going to be switching to this new system with its heavy emphasis on flexibility, then immediately turning around to put slot-like restrictions on the system is pretty counterproductive. Instead, we should balance the 6th-plus psionic powers on the assumption that they will be used multiple times per day, rather than (as with spells) the assumption that they will not.

I can even venture a guess as to what this might look like. With psionics' historical emphasis on augmentation, it may be encouraged for more of a psion's "6th-plus powers" to actually be augmented lower-level powers than it is for a spellcaster to use higher-level slots for lower-level spells. We don't want a caster spamming wishes, but spamming really big confusions? Seems less troublesome.

tglassy said:

What it sounds like is the Psion is going to have talents, basically cantrips, that can be enhanced via “spells”. Like, he’ll have a teleport Cantrip. Concentrate on the Cantrip and you can teleport 10 ft as an action. Now, there will be spells, or disciplines, that augment that. Increase by 10 ft per spell slot, or whatever. Allow an attack or explosion when reappearing. Whatever. But they’ll be tacked on to the Cantrip, which will take the place of the current Psionic focus. They’ll just have a feature that allows them to concentrate on two things at once, which is what the Focus was trying to do anyway.

So, a telekinesis Cantrip That is basically Mage Hand, but can then be augmented by spell slots in various ways. A precognition Cantrip that can be increased in scope through the use of spell slots.

(Replace Cantrip with talent, and spell slots with psi points, it doesn’t matter at this point)

This will give the Psion a unique play style from the other classes, I think, and is a good way to go.

Click to expand...

I think it'll depend on whether the interactions of very specific such as "While using Telekinesis, you may push a target 5 feet away from you when using Magic Missile" or more generic like "While using Telekinesis, when you inflict force damage you push a target 5 feet away from you"...

I guess a talent/cantrip where it's "you gain +X AC for the next turn when you use any spell or a specific spell type of a given level" could be an option. I think I'm more in favour of ones that work off of themed spells/powers rather than any or actual named spells.