Psion class (Mearls, Happy Fun Hour)

[CapnZapp]

And psychic warrior. Even the old 3.5 class had a fraction of the psi points the Psion did, plus a lot of crap the fighter had. It basically was just a fighter with some Psionic power.

If you truly believe that, you never played a PW in 3E.

The PW was an absolute beast, fighting with claws, using vampiric regeneration, doing all sorts of stuff that noone else could.

 

[tglassy]

All of which were spells. I rest my case.

The fact is the only thing the Psychic Warrior got was a bunch of bonus feats and ALMOST ONE THIRD the psi points of the full Psion. All of the awesomeness was because the f****ng Fighter could use Psionics. About half the powers known and a third of the points available. It was a freaking 5e Eldridge Knight with Psionics instead of magic.

*drops mic

 

[Ancalagon]

No, I don't think so.

You can definitely create strong conceptually powerful archetypes even if you have the blandest of archetypes to begin with.

It's all in the execution, as they say.

Merely faffing about "which subclass goes where" is... directionless, which is quite the opposite of what I want.

So what is the archetype then? The faffing about indicates that it isn't there. Mike is poking around trying to make it take form.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about psionics in general. I'm perfectly fine with the psychic warrior being the equivalent of the eldritch knight.

 

[CapnZapp]

So what is the archetype then? The faffing about indicates that it isn't there. Mike is poking around trying to make it take form.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about psionics in general. I'm perfectly fine with the psychic warrior being the equivalent of the eldritch knight.

I'm interested in discussing the polar opposite.

I'm convinced there's nothing missing from the "archetype" of psionic characters that prevents interesting psionic classes, only that a reskinned Eldritch Knight ain't it.

 

[tglassy]

But that’s what the Psychic Warrior WAS! Literally! It had nothing intrinsic. It was 8 bonus feats and psychic powers, with a fighter’s hit Dice and proficiencies, except maybe saving throws. That’s it. It was literally a class made to have a Fighter with psychic powers.

 

[jgsugden]

All of which were spells. I rest my case.

The fact is the only thing the Psychic Warrior got was a bunch of bonus feats and ALMOST ONE THIRD the psi points of the full Psion. All of the awesomeness was because the f****ng Fighter could use Psionics. About half the powers known and a third of the points available. It was a freaking 5e Eldridge Knight with Psionics instead of magic.

*drops mic

*hands mc back to [MENTION=6855204]tglassy[/MENTION]. "You're not done with this, yet."

At a core, there are really only three classes: Brute, Sneak and Spellcaster. Everything we have could be approximated in those three classes (or a multi-class between them). So, noting that there is a similarity between prior Psionic builds and the 5E Eldritch Knight really doesn't matter too much - The Ranger is like the Paladin. The Cleric is like the Druid. The Monk is like the Ranger.

So why don't we just have 3 classes?

Because we want variety. We want to specialize. We want ... character for our characters.

To that end, we're best served by asking the question of what creates the most character for our characters when it comes to class. What is the best way to create a home for a fantasy character design?

We have to two primary options: 1.) Make a class that embodies the core of a fantasy icon, or 2.) Add a subclass to an existing class to 'fill that class out' to embody the concept.

We're discussing two character concepts that are not well served by the existing classes. One is the psion, a psychic combatant that uses the power of the mind to achieve effects similar to, but distinct from, magic. The other is the jedi-esque warrior that merges the power of the mind and the blade.

So why not just use wizards and fighter/magic users for these concepts?

Because they are not spellcasters. The core of what they are is alternative to magic. It is psionics. It is the power of the mind to control the world.

To that end, if we're going to get these concepts in our game, I want to see them done with respect. I want to see them treated as true conceptual builds where we don't just their elements on to existing classes. Sure, there is room to tack a little psionics onto existing classes for subclass builds, but for these core concepts of the psionics in D&D we need to have classes built that serve those concepts specifically and intentionally, rather than just as a tweak on another design.

If I were writing a psionics book, I'd definitely have two core classes (psion and psychic warrior). I'd have a power system for these classes that was *not* a direct parallel of spellcasting. Their powers would generally not be written as spells. Instead, they'd be closer to Warlock invocations. Power Points are a sacred artifact of the Psionic World of D&D, but I'd modify how they're used - PCs would have fewer of them (like Ki points for a monk) and they'd add to the core abilities of the class, but they would not be required to be used to feel like you're playing some form of Mentalist or Jedi.

I've thought that they might be the classes that could lean most on the 4E style of character design. They'd have abilities that do more than just deal damage, and do it on every strike - and don't require slots, charges or points to do it.

In terms of access to powers they could gain keywords as they advance and psionic powers might require multiple keywords to be used - and might have a basic use, plus uses that happen when you augment it with power points. This allows players to create tapestries of related abilities rather than pick and choose select optimal spells. Heck, I'm still a fan of characters not being able to learn certain spells to provoke variety - you could do something similar here and give them a chance to learn keywords, and if they fail they have to learn to look at other designs for their class.

Basically - When I think of playing a psion or psychic warrior, I don't want to feel like I'm playing a different type of wizard or a different type of fighter... I wasn't to feel like I'm playing a super-hero with mental powers or a jedi knight. If you constrain the design of these concepts to the architecture of existing classes, REGARDLESS OF HOW HARD YOU TRY, you're going to miss out on the opportunities you have to service the designs by making them their own classes... and both ideas have enough variety behind them to support several subclasses.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So what is the archetype then? The faffing about indicates that it isn't there. Mike is poking around trying to make it take form.
Just to be clear, I'm talking about psionics in general.

It's just that it's redundant, because psionics was only ever magic re-skinned for use in sci-fi, so when D&D 'mashed up' fantasy & sci-fi (because it was the 70s, and that was just the tenor of the times, I guess) by including both, they were really just including magic, twice, but with different mechanics.

If MM keeps trying to design psionics 'efficiently,' by re-using existing sub-systems that could do the job, it'll just be another redundant caster with a re-shuffled spell list and, if it's luckier than the Sorcerer, some spells unique to it, in a game already dealing with a surfeit of caster options. If he bites the bulette and gives it a mechanically distinct sub-system, and leaves it open to being "not magic," it'll at least avoid the appearance of redundancy.

And, seriously, I think fans of psionics /want/ the mechanical distinctions, every prior version of psionics has had 'em - "power points," for instance, at the absolute least.

 

[Salthorae]

The Psychic Warrior I would say isn't just a re-skinned Eldritch Knight. It uses the EK chassis, but it is pretty different (in current rough draft form) from EK

• Spellcasting: same framework for both
• 3rd level
  
  EK: Weapon bond - bond 2 weapons that can be summoned anywhere on plane as a Bonus Action; Can't be disarmed of these weapons​
  PW: Psychic Destroyer - reflavored Divine Smite that deals Psychic damage​
  PW: Psychic Guardian - Use reaction, expend spell slot to grant ally AC bonus = 3+slot level until the end of your next turn​
• 7th level
  
  EK: War magic - make attack as BA when you cast a Cantrip​
  PW: Psychic storm - if you cast a psionic cantrip OR use the attack action all hostile creatures w/n 10' take psychic damage = Int modifier​
• 10th Level
  
  EK: Eldritch Strike - When you hit a creature it gains disadvantage on saves vs a spell you cast by end of your next turn​
  PW: Psionic Recovery - When you use 2nd wind you also regain an expended 1st level slot​
• 15h level
  
  EK: Arcane Charge - Teleport up to 30' when you use action surge, can be done before or after additional action​
  PW: Psionic Surge - When you use Action surge if you cause a creature damage with an attack or spell they take an additional 1d10 psychic damage​
• 18th level
  
  EK: Improved War Magic - you can make a weapon attack as BA when you cast any 1 action spell.​
  PW: Mind Cleaver - if you hit a creature they become vulnerable to psychic damage until the end of your next turn​

While they come at the same levels, and the spellcasting framework is the same (and also shared with Arcane Trickster), these abilities seem very different in flavor, scope, and effect.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Because some people missed it, I'm going to clarify the reason for the point I was making about telekinesis and telepathy both needing to be in psion.

As of the start of this thread, Mike Mearl's idea was 4 Psion subclasses, which included telekinesis but not telepathy, and telepathy was in a wizard subclass.

Then he switched it around, so there were still 4 Psion subclasses, except now they included telepathy, but not telekinesis, which was now in a wizard subclass.

It's like he's decided you can only have 4 subclasses for Psion.

 

[Salthorae]

It's just that it's redundant, because psionics was only ever magic re-skinned for use in sci-fi, so when D&D 'mashed up' fantasy & sci-fi (because it was the 70s, and that was just the tenor of the times, I guess) by including both, they were really just including magic, twice, but with different mechanics.

If MM keeps trying to design psionics 'efficiently,' by re-using existing sub-systems that could do the job, it'll just be another redundant caster with a re-shuffled spell list and, if it's luckier than the Sorcerer, some spells unique to it, in a game already dealing with a surfeit of caster options. If he bites the bulette and gives it a mechanically distinct sub-system, and leaves it open to being "not magic," it'll at least avoid the appearance of redundancy.

And, seriously, I think fans of psionics /want/ the mechanical distinctions, every prior version of psionics has had 'em - "power points," for instance, at the absolute least.

I think the biggest issue that is at the heart of what is being tossed back and forth is that MM is trying to design something that will be 1) easy enough for new players to use and tackle, but also 2) is acceptable to the hardcore long time gamers.

I love the distinct mechanics that Psionics had in previous editions... but it complicated things greatly and required people to master yet another set of mechanics. as I already said, I think doing what he's doing now, giving some psionics to classes that they really belong to, Psychic Warrior to Fighter, Immortal to Barbarian because they need that fighter chassis + some psionics, etc + creating a new class that will tackle the iconic "psion" concept is great. I hope this makes it to publication and I fully plan to force all psionic character classes/subclasses to use the spell point system (DMG 288-289) to get back the flavor of Psi/Power points from previous editions, while keeping all my other mechanics the same and not having to master too much more.