Psion class (Mearls, Happy Fun Hour)

Yaarel

He Mage
As far as where Mearls is currently at, it seems something like the following. I want to update the Original Post, but am hesitant about the unclear relationship between the psychic warrior fighter and the immortal barbarian



Psion
• Awakened (telepath)
• Nomad (teleporter)
• Metamorph (shapeshifter, psychometabolism)
• Constructor (force constructs, shaper, metacreativity)

Wizard
• Mentalist (elemental-kinesis, psionic spell list)

Bard
• Avatar (ardent, wilder, emotion effects, psychic healer, psionic spell list)

Rogue
• Lurk (psionic invisibility)

Monk
• Soulknife (mind-warping weapon, psionic physical stunts)

Fighter
• Psychic Warrior (psionic gish, psionic spell list)

Barbarian
• Immortal (psionic physical stunts) (battlemind?)
 

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Yaarel

He Mage
Telekinesis (moving objects) feels different thematically from elemental-kinesis.

I like the wizard getting elemental-kinesis.

I still want the psion to have telekinesis.

Possibly the constructor psion can also be the master of telekinesis (mental force), so much so, one can even create force constructs (made out of mental force).
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I'm getting a bad feeling about this.

The impression is clueless designers with no vision - it sounds more like they're trying to solve a puzzle (which piece fits where?) than they're having a strong and consistent idea of what psionics is, and only are debating how to implement it...
The lack of strong vision may be because the archetype has always been vague?
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The lack of strong vision may be because the archetype has always been vague?
True. And even when archetypes are strong, fitting them into the class/subclass system is more art than science. I mean, during the Next playtest, I saw threads with literally hundreds of permutations on the overall class design, and that's for the base D&D concepts!
 

jgsugden

Legend
The Jedi is the Soul Knife, which will be a Monk subclass, which is perfect because Jedi are just Monks with some Psychic powers and a lightsaber. So, the Soul Knife will be a Monk with some psychic powers and a Soul Knife.
That oversimplifies the concept. There is a lot of room for more than one build of psychic warrior/jedi. And the Jedi element deserves to be more than a delayed tweak that doesn't get used because it cannibalized the Ki Points... it deserves to be the core.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
That oversimplifies the concept. There is a lot of room for more than one build of psychic warrior/jedi. And the Jedi element deserves to be more than a delayed tweak that doesn't get used because it cannibalized the Ki Points... it deserves to be the core.

I have every confidence they'll get it right. Really, I find your lack of faith disturbing. :)
 

tglassy

Adventurer
And what is that core? Reading minds, throwing things with their mind, and precognition can be spells. Having an energy blade means the fighting style is primarily Melee. And Jedi have supreme control over their bodies, so pretty much a Monk. In fact, exactly a Monk, adding in a blade and some spells. The Monk already does everything a Jedi does, just without the energy blade and spells. Why build a whole new class when there’s already a class available that does what you want, and a subclass system that accommodates adding in new features to that class?

And psychic warrior. Even the old 3.5 class had a fraction of the psi points the Psion did, plus a lot of crap the fighter had. It basically was just a fighter with some Psionic power. And again, we have a system already in place with the fighter chassis giving everything we need, and an archetype system to accommodate changes.

As for having to wait until 3rd lvl, the Paladin has to wait until 2nd to get spells, and monks have to wait until 2nd lvl to get ki Points. And the way these concepts go, they focus a lot on their bodies and physical development, so it makes sense that it takes them longer than a character who focuses more than their psychic power.

All those Psion classes before were made to give a hybrid class. A Lurk was basically a Rogue with Psionic power. A Psychic Warrior was basically a Fighter with Psionic power. A Soul Knife was basically a ninja with Psionic power. Why would we give these classes a whole new class when the system lets you just have a Fighter with a Psionic subclass? It recreates the wheel.

And if you make it a subclass Of Psion, what about health? Do you give all Psions a d8 to accommodate a melee version? Or give the subclass an extra hit point plus armor? Even so, all it does is make the Psion a little more able to fight in Melee. Whereas the fighter already has a d10 and all proficiencies. And it has all these skills already tailored to fighting. Add a Feat that allows a character to grab a Psionic discipline, and the fighter, with his extra feats, can pump himself up if he really wants those extra disciplines. It doesn’t need its own class, there’s one right there ready for it.
 

jgsugden

Legend
And what is that core? Reading minds, throwing things with their mind, and precognition can be spells. Having an energy blade means the fighting style is primarily Melee. And Jedi have supreme control over their bodies, so pretty much a Monk. In fact, exactly a Monk, adding in a blade and some spells. The Monk already does everything a Jedi does, just without the energy blade and spells. Why build a whole new class when there’s already a class available that does what you want, and a subclass system that accommodates adding in new features to that class?...
The 'jedi' is an easy access reference point that people can understand, but - in my vision of how the psychic warrior should work - it is not a complete picture. I suggested 5 builds for a psychic warrior, all built around a base class:

The base class would be medium armor, all martial weapons, and a small suite of psi powers (much less than the psion) from which to choose - in my mind they'd work similarly to Warlock invocations rather than spells. Then, they would have their own 'Orders/Focuses' that grant the tweak that individualizes their methods. However, from level 1, they'd be attacking foes with a combination of the physical and mental. For example, they might have an ability that allows them to forgo dealing + Str or Dex damage on a melee hit to instead inflict a condition (slow foes movement, make them see phantasms, etc...) The subclasses could be:

Soul Knife - a melee defender that makes psychic weapons and deals damage. Their equivalent in the non-psychic world would be an eldritch knight two-handed weapon fighter. They hit pretty hard, and are durable tanks, but have the fewest tricks of the psychic warriors. They still have some tricks, but like an Eldritch Knight they always wish they had more. The majority of their psychic abilities would be dropped into augmenting their soul blades for particular purposes.

Immortal - This would be similar to a soul knife, but rather than devote their psi to weapons, they devote the majority of their psi to protection. They are hard to take down, and they make it hard to take down their allies. Their equivalent out of psi would be a sword and board paladin, but the mechanics and feel would be very different. However, if you put one at the vanguard with a couple beater melee classes you'd really feel their presence holding their allies up while still being effective on the field themselves - just not as effective as the soul knife in dealing damage.

Disciple - This would be a lower damage build than the high damage soul knife or solid damage immortal, but still a melee build. Their shtick would be what we saw from Vader when he fought Luke in Cloud City - He attacks with weapons and augments those attacks with telekinetic (and other environment impacting) abilities. They make it hard for opponents to function due to the chaos they create around themselves. I'd equate them to a melee cleric most closely, but it really is something we do not have in 5E. This is the psychic warrior you want when you face an army and want to have one man make a difference.

Dominator - Similar to the Disciple, this build is a melee build that gets into the thick of things but is not as durable as the Soul Knife or Immortal. Instead, they rely upon tricks of the mind to win the day. They mix in mind control, illusion, and inflicting some conditions - disrupting the enemy rather than the enemy's environment. They don't impact as wide of an enemy force as the Disciple, but their impacts are a bit more intense.

Mindhunter - This is a true psychic hunter with powers that break an individual foe. While the Dominator blankets an army with charm or paralysis, the Mindhunter grabs the mind of an individual foe and tears into it. They inflict more powerful conditions, but only to single targets... and they make permanent marks when they do it. They don't just dominate you - they leave a piece of their mind in yours, allowing them to reestablish control at a later date. They take memories out of your mind. They implant the frightened condition when they are present - until the condition is removed. They give you phobias that last until removed. They'll dominate a foe and hold that foes mind for as long as they can concentrate. When their blade pierces your flesh, you enter a realm of nightmares that may be with you for the rest of your life.

Could I create each of those subclasses within existing classes? Yeah. I could. I could also make all clerics into fighter subclasses. It just wouldn't be the BEST way to build them.

I want a psion with subclasses, and a psychic warrior with sublasses ... and I don't mind seeing a few new subclasses for other classes that have psychic focuses, but they should only be situations in which the psychic abilities are the nuance, not the focus, of the build.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
And what is that core? Reading minds, throwing things with their mind, and precognition can be spells. Having an energy blade means the fighting style is primarily Melee. And Jedi have supreme control over their bodies, so pretty much a Monk. In fact, exactly a Monk, adding in a blade and some spells. The Monk already does everything a Jedi does, just without the energy blade and spells. Why build a whole new class when there’s already a class available that does what you want, and a subclass system that accommodates adding in new features to that class?

And psychic warrior. Even the old 3.5 class had a fraction of the psi points the Psion did, plus a lot of crap the fighter had. It basically was just a fighter with some Psionic power. And again, we have a system already in place with the fighter chassis giving everything we need, and an archetype system to accommodate changes.

As for having to wait until 3rd lvl, the Paladin has to wait until 2nd to get spells, and monks have to wait until 2nd lvl to get ki Points. And the way these concepts go, they focus a lot on their bodies and physical development, so it makes sense that it takes them longer than a character who focuses more than their psychic power.

All those Psion classes before were made to give a hybrid class. A Lurk was basically a Rogue with Psionic power. A Psychic Warrior was basically a Fighter with Psionic power. A Soul Knife was basically a ninja with Psionic power. Why would we give these classes a whole new class when the system lets you just have a Fighter with a Psionic subclass? It recreates the wheel.

And if you make it a subclass Of Psion, what about health? Do you give all Psions a d8 to accommodate a melee version? Or give the subclass an extra hit point plus armor? Even so, all it does is make the Psion a little more able to fight in Melee. Whereas the fighter already has a d10 and all proficiencies. And it has all these skills already tailored to fighting. Add a Feat that allows a character to grab a Psionic discipline, and the fighter, with his extra feats, can pump himself up if he really wants those extra disciplines. It doesn’t need its own class, there’s one right there ready for it.

Agree with pretty much all of this. Depending on final implementation, you may not need a new feat. Just add/house rule that Magic Initiate allows one to access the Psion spell list and you can get access to a discipline (1st level spell) and a couple of talents/cantrips as needed

I do like where this is going WAY more than the initial Mystic implementation. I also think that I will houserule use of the spell points system for anyone using a Psionic class or subclass as I loved that mechanical aspect of the old Psionics with Power Points vs. Spell Slots.

There is a great 5e Jedi conceptual build on Youtube that uses Monk/Warlock multi to get almost everything you want/need to play a "jedi"
Here (initial build)
Here (leveling up)
Here (to 20)

And for different flavors of Jedi/Sith you can just use different Warlock pacts and different Monk paths, mix and match to get the concept that you envision for your character and/or orders. You can use the Warlock mechanics without requiring anything from your players from a Patron interaction stand point. If I were going to allow this concept into a game I DM, I would probably turn the Jedi/Sith oaths into a mechanical Oath for their Warlock powers (like a Paladin Oath) and if they violate those then there will be RP consequences, etc. That way the PC doesn't get off Scott-free from the Warlock Patron.

  • Guardian Jedi - Open Hand + Fiend Pact (reflavor & choose right spells)
  • Consular Jedi - Open Hand + Great Old One pact
  • Sentinel Jedi - Shadow Monk + Great Old One
  • Sith - Long Death + Fiend Pack
 

CapnZapp

Legend
The lack of strong vision may be because the archetype has always been vague?
No, I don't think so.

You can definitely create strong conceptually powerful archetypes even if you have the blandest of archetypes to begin with.

It's all in the execution, as they say.

Merely faffing about "which subclass goes where" is... directionless, which is quite the opposite of what I want.
 

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