Everybody Cheats?

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs? Yes, Everybody Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion: Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is...

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs?

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Yes, Everybody​

Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion:
Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is extremely common--almost everyone cheats and this dishonesty is implicitly condoned in most situation. The large majority of interviewees admitted to cheating, and in the games I played, I cheated as well.
Fine makes it a point of clarify that cheating doesn't carry quite the same implications in role-playing as it does in other games:
Since FRP players are not competing against each other, but are cooperating, cheating does not have the same effect on the game balance. For example, a player who cheats in claiming that he has rolled a high number while his character is fighting a dragon or alien spaceship not only helps himself, but also his party, since any member of the party might be killed. Thus the players have little incentive to prevent this cheating.
The interesting thing about cheating is that if everyone cheats, parity is maintained among the group. But when cheating is rampant, any player who adheres slavishly to die-roll results has "bad luck" with the dice. Cheating takes place in a variety of ways involving dice (the variable component PCs can't control), such as saying the dice is cocked, illegible, someone bumped the table, it rolled off a book or dice tray, etc.

Why Cheat?​

One of the challenges with early D&D is that co-creator Gary Gygax's design used rarity to make things difficult. This form of design reasoned that the odds against certain die rolls justified making powerful character builds rare, and it all began with character creation.

Character creation was originally 3d6 for each attribute, full stop. With the advent of computers, players could automate this rolling process by rapidly randomizing thousands of characters until they got the combination of numbers they wanted. These numbers dictated the PC's class (paladins, for example, required a very strict set of high attributes). Psionics too, in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, required a specific set of attributes that made it possible to spontaneously manifest psionic powers. Later forms of character generation introduced character choice: 4d6 assigned to certain attributes, a point buy system, etc. But in the early incarnations of the game, it was in the player's interest, if she wanted to play a paladin or to play a psionic, to roll a lot -- or just cheat (using the dice pictured above).

Game masters have a phrase for cheating known as "fudging" a roll; the concept of fudging means the game master may ignore a roll for or against PCs if it doesn't fit the kind of game he's trying to create. PCs can be given extra chances to reroll, or the roll could be interpreted differently. This "fudging" happens in an ebb and flow as the GM determines the difficulty and if the die rolls support the narrative.

GM screens were used as a reference tool with relevant charts and to prevent players from seeing maps and notes. But they also helped make it easier for GMs to fudge rolls. A poll on RPG.net shows that over 90% of GMs fudged rolls behind the screen.

Cheating Is the Rule​

One of Fifth Edition's innovations was adopting a common form of cheating -- the reroll -- by creating advantage. PCs now have rules encouraging them to roll the dice twice, something they've been doing for decades with the right excuse.

When it comes to cheating, it seems like we've all been doing it. But given that we're all working together to have a good time, is it really cheating?
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Ricochet

Explorer
I'd actually love to get a d20 that's weighted to more likely roll a 1. Just for one player who, no matter what dice he uses, has obscene luck. Its crazy. We even have a dice tray that we roll on, and he's straight up rolling it, no sleight of hand involved. I just want to see what would happen with his luck if he had a weighted d20.

Tons of dice are faulty. You can do salt water tests to see if they are weighted wrong. Many skew to either 1 or 20. He likely has a few "lucky dice", which are lucky because they are basically defective inside. :)
 

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pemerton

Legend
The 1e DMG explicitly instructs the DM to not be bound by the dice. Yes, you should generally follow up them, but if they didn’t make sense, then ignore them or use them as a guideline.
Those same sections also indicate that the GM should not violate the major precepts of the game by allowing unearned victories. In effect, Gygax is fairly relaxed about ignoring dice rolls for introducing new content (wandering monsters, discovering a new part of the dungeon behind a secret door) and is prepared to allow alternatives to death if a skilled player's PC nevertheless gets unlucky in combat (although he stresses that the alternative to death should still respect the monster's victory, so it has to be some sort of disabling condition that puts the PC out of the combat); but he is opposed to fudging to hit and damage rolls so as to allow monsters to be "defeated" without really being defeated.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
"Cheapens"? It still costs $27.98 on Amazon, whether the player "misreads" a hit roll or not. This is not some noble endeavor or something. It is 14 year-olds with chips and soda and a good time. I think the Cheeto dust rather puts us past the idea that we have to worry about the game being cheap.
Cheapens in spirit, not in actual dollars-pounds-yen price...

Oh, good grief, another with the absolutism and extremes!
Given that the thread title is itself an absolutism (and false, too), what do you expect?

I have low to no tolerance for cheaters.

That said, honest mistakes happen without intent - someone adds up a PC's xp wrong, it's easy to see it's not an attempt to cheat when the mistakes break about 50-50 too high and too low - and it's intent that matters; often fairly easy to determine once a pattern develops.

Lanefan
 


Sadras

Legend
It seems that a player "cheating" to directly benefit their own PC and a DM "cheating" to increase the fun for the whole group are so different that they seem to me that they shouldn't even fall under the same label.

Just because a player's cheating to benefit their own PC might indirectly benefit other PCs, it also may directly harm the other players by making it less fun. A DM fudging may directly benefit or harm the PCs when it's as likely to make a fight that could have anti-climatically ended early take longer as it is shortening a slog of a fight that is no longer fun, but which also directly benefits the players by making it more fun.

So leaving aside the PCs and focusing on the real world players: player cheating usually only benefits one and harms the others, whereas DM fudging usually benefits everyone.

It's apples and oranges.

This is exactly my take on it.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
Well, there's cheating and there's cheating, right? There's a reason the common practice of DMs ignoring the results of die rolls at times is called 'fudging' and not cheating.
But given that we're all working together to have a good time, is it really cheating?
And that's the crucial thing you need to ask yourself: "Will we have a better time if I'm cheating now, or not?"
When I'm DMing, I make all of my die rolls in the open. My reputation as a fair DM would clearly suffer if I started fudging. But there are more subtle ways to cheat, of course. E.g. I can simply decide not to roll at all when the rules would have called for a roll. Also, as a DM I need to make judgement calls all the time. Not everything is decided by the rolling of dice. Who's going to be attacked next by the nasty monster? That's a decision I'm making based on all kinds of criteria. What's important is to not lose the players trust in your judgement.
E.g. I've found it helps tremendously to point out potential consequences of actions _before_ they're being attempted. Often, a simple "Are you sure that's what you want to do?" will be sufficient to warn a player (unless I'm just trying to mess with him ;-)). But if the decision is confirmed and the dice are rolled, there can be no cheating.

I've gladly adopted point-buy as soon as it was available as a method of creating a character (and I was doubly glad when D&D 4e finally eliminated rolling for hit points, too). Because that's one area where trying to prevent players from cheating simply isn't effective. Nobody wins if a DM forces a player to play a character she doesn't want to play because she thinks the character sucks. All you'll achieve is to make everyone in your group miserable. I've had to learn that lesson the hard way.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Cheapens in spirit, not in actual dollars-pounds-yen price...

In spirit? It is a spirit of Cheetos and Mountain Dew. It is a spirit of pretending to be elves and dwarves with funny voices, a spirit of pop-culture references and puns stuffed in among cliches, stereotypes, and plots shamelessly stolen from pulp adventure novels.

Our games sometimes provide emotionally deep moments, and sometimes we tell stories with some amount of Truth in them, or have some decent High Concept, but let's not kid ourselves that in general our hobby is a lofty pursuit that can be lessened by the fact that Whumdinger the Wizard really shouldn't have made that saving throw.

Given that the thread title is itself an absolutism (and false, too), what do you expect?

Um... dude? The thread title is a QUESTION.
 

With apologies to REM...

Well, everybody cheats sometimes
Everybody lies
And everybody cheats sometimes
And everybody cheats sometimes
So, roll on, roll on

And now, you shall have that song stuck in your head for the rest of the day.

My work here is done...
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So, at my table, everyone is my friend. There is nobody at my table that I do not or would not otherwise have over to dinner, go catch a movie with, play in larps with, and so on. In order to get bounced from my table, you have to violate not just the rules of the game, but friendship. And to me friendship is worth a heck of a lot more than the result on a d20.

I also play with good friends. My group has been gaming in part for 30+ years, and as a whole for about 10 years. If I caught one of them cheating that person would be given the option to stop cheating, or I would stop DMing. We'd still be friends, and there are plenty of board games we love to play, but I wouldn't DM for someone who would affect the integrity of the game like that.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I also play with good friends. My group has been gaming in part for 30+ years, and as a whole for about 10 years. If I caught one of them cheating that person would be given the option to stop cheating, or I would stop DMing. We'd still be friends, and there are plenty of board games we love to play, but I wouldn't DM for someone who would affect the integrity of the game like that.
You are making this sound far more disproportionately serious than it actually is.
 

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