Everybody Cheats?

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs? Yes, Everybody Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion: Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is...

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs?

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Yes, Everybody​

Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion:
Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is extremely common--almost everyone cheats and this dishonesty is implicitly condoned in most situation. The large majority of interviewees admitted to cheating, and in the games I played, I cheated as well.
Fine makes it a point of clarify that cheating doesn't carry quite the same implications in role-playing as it does in other games:
Since FRP players are not competing against each other, but are cooperating, cheating does not have the same effect on the game balance. For example, a player who cheats in claiming that he has rolled a high number while his character is fighting a dragon or alien spaceship not only helps himself, but also his party, since any member of the party might be killed. Thus the players have little incentive to prevent this cheating.
The interesting thing about cheating is that if everyone cheats, parity is maintained among the group. But when cheating is rampant, any player who adheres slavishly to die-roll results has "bad luck" with the dice. Cheating takes place in a variety of ways involving dice (the variable component PCs can't control), such as saying the dice is cocked, illegible, someone bumped the table, it rolled off a book or dice tray, etc.

Why Cheat?​

One of the challenges with early D&D is that co-creator Gary Gygax's design used rarity to make things difficult. This form of design reasoned that the odds against certain die rolls justified making powerful character builds rare, and it all began with character creation.

Character creation was originally 3d6 for each attribute, full stop. With the advent of computers, players could automate this rolling process by rapidly randomizing thousands of characters until they got the combination of numbers they wanted. These numbers dictated the PC's class (paladins, for example, required a very strict set of high attributes). Psionics too, in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, required a specific set of attributes that made it possible to spontaneously manifest psionic powers. Later forms of character generation introduced character choice: 4d6 assigned to certain attributes, a point buy system, etc. But in the early incarnations of the game, it was in the player's interest, if she wanted to play a paladin or to play a psionic, to roll a lot -- or just cheat (using the dice pictured above).

Game masters have a phrase for cheating known as "fudging" a roll; the concept of fudging means the game master may ignore a roll for or against PCs if it doesn't fit the kind of game he's trying to create. PCs can be given extra chances to reroll, or the roll could be interpreted differently. This "fudging" happens in an ebb and flow as the GM determines the difficulty and if the die rolls support the narrative.

GM screens were used as a reference tool with relevant charts and to prevent players from seeing maps and notes. But they also helped make it easier for GMs to fudge rolls. A poll on RPG.net shows that over 90% of GMs fudged rolls behind the screen.

Cheating Is the Rule​

One of Fifth Edition's innovations was adopting a common form of cheating -- the reroll -- by creating advantage. PCs now have rules encouraging them to roll the dice twice, something they've been doing for decades with the right excuse.

When it comes to cheating, it seems like we've all been doing it. But given that we're all working together to have a good time, is it really cheating?
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
You are making this sound far more disproportionately serious than it actually is.

I tend to agree. In a tournament or competition, it'd be another matter. But in my home? It just isn't that serious.

... I wouldn't DM for someone who would affect the integrity of the game like that.

I find I categorize "integrity of the game" with the "cheapens" comment. The integrity of Cheetos and Mt. Dew and "I attack the darkness!"? The game's integrity, in and of itself, is of no import. It is not a goal or priority. The game's integrity is only relevant insofar as it supports the player's enjoyment, and no farther. The game serves the people, not the other way around.

Where do you draw the line on DMing for a cheating player?

Lines are absolutes, and I'm not so big on those in my hobby gaming. It is a "justice is law tempered by mercy" kind of thing. Hard lines do not allow for consideration of context. Hard lines do not reliably tell you the right thing to do.

I don't know about you, but I don't play so often, with so many people, that I cannot replace hard lines with analysis of each individual case. I can look at the people involved, the overall impact, and choose an individual course of action for the particular case, rather than "you cheated, you are *gone*".
 

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cmad1977

Hero
With apologies to REM...

Well, everybody cheats sometimes
Everybody lies
And everybody cheats sometimes
And everybody cheats sometimes
So, roll on, roll on

And now, you shall have that song stuck in your head for the rest of the day.

My work here is done...

Unfortunately the song stuck in my head is ‘what does the fox say’
 

Agreed. It really does drain the fun out of the room.

The thing about cheaters is that they’re never as discreet as they think. We all know how dice probability works; no matter how high our plusses are, eventually the dice roll in the low single digits. Someone that always succeeds/hits, that’s just not how probability works.

As for cheating at stats, I think AL’s mandate of the Standard Array or Point-Buy is glorious – at my home table, I even mandate Standard Array at my home table as well. Because otherwise, yeah, there will always be that one person that has an 18 in their prime ability and nothing lower than a 12.

Gary Alan Fine’s work is worth reading, absolutely. It’s, as far as I know, the first academic study of gaming.

For my part, yes, cheating was rampant at our table when we started gaming. But we were also all very young. I was nine years old when I picked up the red box. At that age, it was certainly too tempting to put success above simulation. While I’ve certainly grown up enough in the decades since not to cheat these days, to abide by the rolls of the dice, I’m sad to say that there are still plenty of people that haven’t.

I have one player who tries to cheat like this, and let me tell you, it ruins the game for everyone else.
 




S

Sunseeker

Guest
You know what bothers me more than cheating?

People who bail on games.

I'll be far faster to boot someone who consistently cancels, no-shows or arrives late (like half-way through) than I will to boot someone who may be fudging their dice rolls. At least the cheater shows up and contributes!

"Beating the players" isn't hard. If I want to, Cheatin' John will die horribly. No amount of Nat 20's will save his butt.

But the game isn't about me winning or them winning. It's not about me trying to kill their characters. Shoot, when I ran Ravenloft (however briefly) I just rolled the dice behind the screen for sound effects and then narrated what happened as was cinematically appropriate. Sometimes the bad-guys crit. Sometimes they fumbled. Usually when it would be most "awesome" to make them look scary or to give the players a fighting chance.

"The Game" is about everyone getting together and having a good time. If Cheatin' John is preventing us from having THAT, then I'll boot him. Otherwise, Cheatin' John is likely to learn real quick that there's more to my games than "winning".
 


Sadras

Legend
Any notions of the game's "integrity" strikes me as farcical levels of over seriousness here.

Games where anything goes strike me as farcical.

Simon says anything goes, all the time, every time.
Yay, I'm having such fun!

Out of all the issues to kick someone out of a tabletop gaming group, this one seems kinda miniscule

Really? I do not think it is that miniscule.

There are ways to deal with a serial cheater.

Agree, there are ways but this debate is coming from where all options have already been exhausted.

So for me this is less about the "cheating," and more about when the person's playing becomes unreasonably disruptive for the group.

Cheating has been called out as being unreasonably disruptive by many posters here.

The game's integrity is only relevant insofar as it supports the player's enjoyment, and no farther. The game serves the people, not the other way around.

As others have mentioned players' enjoyment may be drained by a player that cheats at the table.

Lines are absolutes, and I'm not so big on those in my hobby gaming.

I like playing games with rules otherwise why bother?
However, having said all that, I'm more forgiving playing pictionary, 30 seconds, charades or other such games at a Saturday braai (South African equivalent of a barbecue) with the drinks flowing. It is generally a different crowd, it is a competitive game with perhaps a different social contract in place.

I can look at the people involved, the overall impact, and choose an individual course of action for the particular case, rather than "you cheated, you are *gone*".

It doesn't escalate to 11 immediately. It is like me using an example of a cheater and saying he rolled 20's all session. No one cheats that much and no one dismisses a friend from a game that easily.

EDIT: And just to bring it down to reality - the chance that your friend does not change his/her cheating ways after you and/or the table have taken him/her to task maybe even more than once (if necessary) for cheating is assuredly zero.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
Games where anything goes strike me as farcical.
Did defeating that strawman feel satisfying? Good.

Really? I do not think it is that miniscule.
Yes.

Agree, there are ways but this debate is coming from where all options have already been exhausted.
That position seems far more moderate than a number of other voices in this debate.

Cheating has been called out as being unreasonably disruptive by many posters here.
And? I don't have to agree with those many posters or find their positions reasonable.
 

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