Everybody Cheats?

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs? Yes, Everybody Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion: Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is...

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs?

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Yes, Everybody​

Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion:
Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is extremely common--almost everyone cheats and this dishonesty is implicitly condoned in most situation. The large majority of interviewees admitted to cheating, and in the games I played, I cheated as well.
Fine makes it a point of clarify that cheating doesn't carry quite the same implications in role-playing as it does in other games:
Since FRP players are not competing against each other, but are cooperating, cheating does not have the same effect on the game balance. For example, a player who cheats in claiming that he has rolled a high number while his character is fighting a dragon or alien spaceship not only helps himself, but also his party, since any member of the party might be killed. Thus the players have little incentive to prevent this cheating.
The interesting thing about cheating is that if everyone cheats, parity is maintained among the group. But when cheating is rampant, any player who adheres slavishly to die-roll results has "bad luck" with the dice. Cheating takes place in a variety of ways involving dice (the variable component PCs can't control), such as saying the dice is cocked, illegible, someone bumped the table, it rolled off a book or dice tray, etc.

Why Cheat?​

One of the challenges with early D&D is that co-creator Gary Gygax's design used rarity to make things difficult. This form of design reasoned that the odds against certain die rolls justified making powerful character builds rare, and it all began with character creation.

Character creation was originally 3d6 for each attribute, full stop. With the advent of computers, players could automate this rolling process by rapidly randomizing thousands of characters until they got the combination of numbers they wanted. These numbers dictated the PC's class (paladins, for example, required a very strict set of high attributes). Psionics too, in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, required a specific set of attributes that made it possible to spontaneously manifest psionic powers. Later forms of character generation introduced character choice: 4d6 assigned to certain attributes, a point buy system, etc. But in the early incarnations of the game, it was in the player's interest, if she wanted to play a paladin or to play a psionic, to roll a lot -- or just cheat (using the dice pictured above).

Game masters have a phrase for cheating known as "fudging" a roll; the concept of fudging means the game master may ignore a roll for or against PCs if it doesn't fit the kind of game he's trying to create. PCs can be given extra chances to reroll, or the roll could be interpreted differently. This "fudging" happens in an ebb and flow as the GM determines the difficulty and if the die rolls support the narrative.

GM screens were used as a reference tool with relevant charts and to prevent players from seeing maps and notes. But they also helped make it easier for GMs to fudge rolls. A poll on RPG.net shows that over 90% of GMs fudged rolls behind the screen.

Cheating Is the Rule​

One of Fifth Edition's innovations was adopting a common form of cheating -- the reroll -- by creating advantage. PCs now have rules encouraging them to roll the dice twice, something they've been doing for decades with the right excuse.

When it comes to cheating, it seems like we've all been doing it. But given that we're all working together to have a good time, is it really cheating?
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca


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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Our games sometimes provide emotionally deep moments, and sometimes we tell stories with some amount of Truth in them, or have some decent High Concept, but let's not kid ourselves that in general our hobby is a lofty pursuit that can be lessened by the fact that Whumdinger the Wizard really shouldn't have made that saving throw.

It's not about being lofty. It's about meaning. Players love to talk about the grand, close fights where they scraped out the win over the BBEG with the lucky crit or fantstically timed save. If they found out that the "crit" was actually a miss and the player of the barbarian cheated, or that Whumdinger shouldn't have made that save, that epic win is now meaningless. The cheater robbed the players of the epic win and they will never know if they would have or should have really won that fight. And that's just one example of how cheaters rob the other players of the genuine game experience.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Tons of dice are faulty. You can do salt water tests to see if they are weighted wrong. Many skew to either 1 or 20. He likely has a few "lucky dice", which are lucky because they are basically defective inside. :)
I had a couple of dice sink but still roll well. And some of my dice I bought in Reagan era.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You are making this sound far more disproportionately serious than it actually is.

Cheating takes away the genuineness of the game experience and I'm not going to put work and effort into DMing for a person who would do that to the rest of the players(including me).
 

Cheating takes away the genuineness of the game experience and I'm not going to put work and effort into DMing for a person who would do that to the rest of the players(including me).

I think we are discussing multiple degrees of severity in cheating here. Umbran seems to argue that getting a saving throw wrong every now and then, should not mean the ending of a friendship. It's simply not that important. And he's not wrong.

But I think Maxperson is talking about people who deliberately and consistently cheat, thus ruining other people's fun. I've played with someone like that, and it really undermines the game. Someone who constantly rolls his dice hidden from everyone's view (and wouldn't you know it, he rolled a crit again!), or uses personal dice that have a suspiciously high success rate. After a while you just don't want to play with that person any more.

Because it not only ruins the fun of the DM, but it also makes the other players feel less heroic. You'll have this one player who never rolls a 1, and never fails a check. As if failing an athletics check or perception check every now and then is the end of the world. I just don't get players like that. When you see the DM and your fellow players all be completely fine with their mishaps, and for some reason you still feel the need to cheat. Like you have to be the very best of the group at everything. So as you can probably tell, I have definitely kicked a player like that from my group once.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think we are discussing multiple degrees of severity in cheating here. Umbran seems to argue that getting a saving throw wrong every now and then, should not mean the ending of a friendship. It's simply not that important. And he's not wrong.

There's a difference between getting it wrong, which is an accident, and cheating, which is intentional. Cheating, however small, violates the integrity of the game. Yes there are degrees, but every last one is a violation that robs the game of its genuineness. People don't cheat when it doesn't matter, unless it's a compulsive problem or something.

But I think Maxperson is talking about people who deliberately and consistently cheat, thus ruining other people's fun. I've played with someone like that, and it really undermines the game. Someone who constantly rolls his dice hidden from everyone's view (and wouldn't you know it, he rolled a crit again!), or uses personal dice that have a suspiciously high success rate. After a while you just don't want to play with that person any more.

Deliberate is the key. If the player cheats once I will talk to the player and explain the seriousness. If the player cheats a second time, that's as consistently as I need to stop DMing. If he cheats a second time after the talk, he's not going to stop at two.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Those same sections also indicate that the GM should not violate the major precepts of the game by allowing unearned victories. In effect, Gygax is fairly relaxed about ignoring dice rolls for introducing new content (wandering monsters, discovering a new part of the dungeon behind a secret door) and is prepared to allow alternatives to death if a skilled player's PC nevertheless gets unlucky in combat (although he stresses that the alternative to death should still respect the monster's victory, so it has to be some sort of disabling condition that puts the PC out of the combat); but he is opposed to fudging to hit and damage rolls so as to allow monsters to be "defeated" without really being defeated.

Yes, but he’s still modifying the results.

But I’m not debating exactly what the DM or players are allowed to do. The specifics are only relevant in relation to what the table agrees to.

The point is simply that if the rules (published, house, table) allow something, such as fudging dice, then by definition it cannot be cheating because it’s playing within the rules.
 

Ricochet

Explorer
I had a couple of dice sink but still roll well. And some of my dice I bought in Reagan era.

It's not whether or not they sink (enough salt and they all float, theoretically), but whether or not - when prodded- they always float into the same number on top. Then you have badly-weighted dice.
 

There's a difference between getting it wrong, which is an accident, and cheating, which is intentional. Cheating, however small, violates the integrity of the game. Yes there are degrees, but every last one is a violation that robs the game of its genuineness. People don't cheat when it doesn't matter, unless it's a compulsive problem or something.

If a player cheats in regards to tracking their ammo and/or rations, that is far less severe in my opinion than cheating on their dice rolls (hiding their rolls, using weighted dice, etc).
 

Aldarc

Legend
Where do you draw the line on DMing for a cheating player?
Any notions of the game's "integrity" strikes me as farcical levels of over seriousness here. If these are the sort of things that makes a person stop DMing, then maybe they should not be in the business of DMing to begin with. Out of all the issues to kick someone out of a tabletop gaming group, this one seems kinda miniscule, especially if they are your "friends." If I ever did that, I would think that my priorities in life were wildly out of whack. There are ways to deal with a serial cheater. If they cheat with dice, then you put them in situations where dice can't save them. Give them other dice to use. You don't call for a roll. You provide greater incentives for those who aren't cheating. DMs should not be in the business of playing lawful stupid gnome paladins with their players. No one likes paladins. Just ask [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION].

So for me this is less about the "cheating," and more about when the person's playing becomes unreasonably disruptive for the group. I don't know where that arbitrary line in the sand is either, because this line tends to vary person to person and group to group. But if I am given the choice between a periodic cheater who gels well with the group and brings a lot of fun to the table and a Grade-A :):):):):):):) who never cheats and admonishes others when they cheat, then I will pick the serial cheater every time. If this serial cheater is being disruptive to the group, then I suspect that there are other issues apart from from the cheating that are at play here, with the cheating simply being a pretext.

Cheating takes away the genuineness of the game experience and I'm not going to put work and effort into DMing for a person who would do that to the rest of the players(including me).
 

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