D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Except it didn't. So this inhibition appears self-imposed by yourself.

This may stem from the undercurrent of "play-to-win" approaches that seem to run through your games rather than "play-to-roleplay." If you are actually roleplaying in first-person in this world, as you have claimed as your preference, then why would you be metagaming unless you are playing to win some sort of board game?
Because no matter how hard I try, the meta-knowledge I-as-player have will inevitably creep into my first-person roleplaying of my character.

Rare indeed would be the person for whom it wouldn't. Rare enough, I posit, to maybe not exist at all.

A power imbalance of knowledge will always exist, and the GM will not always be the most knowledgeable one. And perhaps it's okay and acceptable that the GM is not require to be the most knowledgeable person about a setting at the table.
At some tables this might be true, but in the grander scheme I'd say that it's the GM's job to be the most knowledgeable person at the table with regards to the setting (particularly if it's a homebrew!!!).

Have you nurtured such dependency on the GM through your own GMing that you really are that incapable of making a reasonable judgment as a player? Stop over-complicating basic things, such as communication. Re-learn how to think and use your basic critical thinking skills. :erm:
Snark aside, it has nothing to do with my judgment as a player but has a lot to do with my perception of player equality at the table. If I as player, for example, have designed part of the setting to the point that other players have to ask me about its elements rather than the GM, I've a) put myself above (which is the wrong word but I can't think of better at the moment) the other players at the table and b) IMO I've stepped beyond the purview of a player and well into the GM's territory - I've made myself a co-GM, in a small way.

This is why I was raising the point about having to answer to two GMs, one of whom is also a co-player of mine at this hypothetical table.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I have been able to check the Rules Cyclopedia (which is a downstream B/X variant, based on the Mentzer version) ...

B/X Rules Cyclopedia said:
]A cleric is a human character who is dedicated to serving a great and worthy cause. This cause can be an Immortal being dedicated to a specific goal or attribute; sometimes the cleric is serving only his alignment, and has no interest in immortal beings. The D&D game does not deal with the ethical and theological beliefs of the characters in the game.
That last sentence looks like nothing more than a blatant appeasement to the BADD and Satanic panic crowd. Awful.

Unfortunately you're not recalling correctly.

The 6th/7th thing is mentioned in the DMG (pp 38-39) and also in the PHB (p 40), although the latter presents it as applying to 5th level spells also. And in both places the possibility of spells being withheld for wrongful conduct is also discussed. There is no mechanic as such, but the GM is authorised to use authority in this respect.
I thought so - thanks for finding that!

I don't know if 2nd ed AD&D conferred similar authority on a GM. I'm pretty sure 3E doesn't. I know 4e doesn't. And it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the 5e Basic PDF.

So 1st ed AD&D (or perhaps AD&D in general) may be an outlier here.
Could be.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I believe you are applying an incredibly restricted view of past editions to win an argument rather than to accurately describe these games. As you are limited to saying that "it changes the god/cleric relationship," which is wholly subjective and requires an exceptionally narrow reading of the texts that ignores where what you say is not true, then it's clear that it Eberron does not actually change the cleric class. It exists within the spectrum of what D&D intends for cleric play. Thank you for proving my point.

So you would have no trouble with an Eberron game where the gods came down and talked to their clerics, issuing orders?
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I don't understand what your point about the context of choice is.

Of course in the Curse of the Golden Flower it is only out of ignorance that brother and sister choose to sleep together. That's why the revelation that their relationship was in fact incestuous is so significant. And that revelation shows that, in this case, ignorance was not bliss. It was terrible. I won't spoil the movie any further, but the proper response is not "soul searching".

And it's simply not true that in these sorts of contexts the character concept remans the same eg if my concept of my PC is as upright in all things, and then it is revealed via unilateral GM fiat that I have in fact committed incest, my character concept is blown away. And a new concept is also added, unilaterally: uwitting committer of incest.

If my concept of my PC is stalwart defender of worthy folk and then it turns out via unilateral GM fiat that the folk in question are serial killers, my character concept is blown away. And a new concept is also added, in this case probably something along the lines of sucker! although the context might establish something slightly different.

I don't think what I'm saying is hard to follow. A person isn't just what s/he believes s/he is. If it was, people could never learn new things about themselves that make them ashamed or disappointed or (conversely) excited or proud.
This last bit is exactly what I'm getting at - in both the examples above the character believes he/she is something (upright; stalwart) and then learns something new either about him/herself or about something that shaped him/her; and then has to deal with the feelings of shame or disappointment that follow.

How is this bad?

With respect, this suggests a very shallow approach to fiction.

Suppose your PC is hired to assassinate someone, and does it - and then it turns out the victim is your father? Are you really going to tell me that that doesn't change things? That there is nothing to the game but the successful process of executing the intended hit?
In the moment, before the added knowledge is revealed, the successful hit is the focus of the game. Then, after the reveal, the focus changes to one or more of a) get your father revived, if the setting allows for such; b) find whoever ordered the hit and return the favour; c) find out why the hit was ordered - just what was dear old Dad up to anyway, to put him in my crosshairs - and follow up on that. And on top of all of this there's likely* going to be some serious remorse, possibly even leading to a change of career (in-game, change of class or alignment). Tons of stuff there to mine for both role-playing the character and furthering the campaign!

* - assuming a reasonable previous relationship with your father; not always a given.

Finding stuff and taking it from A to B is not the stuff of which my RPGing is made. The purely tactical process of carrying out a hit is not the stuff of which my RPGing is made. What is key is the fiction that is established.
Ah...it just struck me. You're looking at the means - the fiction established en route to achieving the goal, where I'm also looking at the ends - was the goal achieved.

If the GM uniaterally changes that fiction to invalidate the players' contributions, that is a sucky game.
A sponsor's heel turn does not invalidate the players' contributions, though. How can it? The players (I assume!) didn't come up with the sponsor's personality or motivations or whatever; that's all GM-side stuff so there's no player contributions to invalidate there. The players/PCs found and returned the McGuffin, and developed their characters along the way and also wrote the story of that particular adventure; those contributions aren't invalidated by the sponsor then turning on them. In fact, the sponsor turning on them IMO gives a fine reason to continue the story.

Here's a more apt comparison: 10 years after buying the car you learn that you had a brother, one who was adopted or fostered out before you were born, so you never met him. And now you try and track him down, but you learn that just over 10 years ago he was killed, hit by a car while crossing the road. And the owner of the car, who couldn't handle driving that car anymore, sold it. To you. And so now all your fond memories of your times in your car become memories of enjoying time spent in the car that killed the brother you never met. I think for many people that would make a big difference to those memories. Both in fiction and in real life, those are the sorts of discoveries that can change a life. I doubt that many people would respond by way of "soul searching".

So far I've given examples that changes things in a bad way; sometimes people have things revealed to them that change their lives in a good way - I'm thinking now of the Balld of Bill Hubbard in Roger Water's album amused to death - a true story about a WWI soldier who'd been trying to carry a shot and dying comrade back into their trench but had to leave him in a shellhole in no man's land, and for years had lived with the burden that his friend was never found so that he might be buried and his death recorded; and then when he was an old man, he discovered his friend's name on a cenotaph roll, and - to quote - "It lightened my heart." (This example also helps us think about soul searching - as the soldier says when being interviewed, he had always wondered if there was something more he could have done to bring his friend back to the trench - but now that his heart is lightened, that soul searcing is no longer necessary.)
See above re people learning things about themselves and-or their environment.

The GM's role is to provoke the players to make choices. This may or may not require soul searching on the player's parts (either for themselves, or as their PCs).

If the GM wants to introduce an apparently pleasant person into the fiction, who then turns out to be a serial killer or vampire (an old standby!) or whatever, maybe that will make for some good RPGing and some appropriate soul searching, depending on how it's handled and the mood of the table.

But I'm talking about a case where the player has already estabilshed that his PC is out adventuring so that he make the world safe for his dear dad. This is the character concept. And now the GM unilaterally determines that that concept is radically mistaken, and that dad actually isn't worth saving. Or in whatever other way, depending on the details, unilaterally reveals the PC's self-conception and motivation (which in typical cases is also the player's conception of the PC and the PC's motivation) to be radically misguided.

I can't think of any RPGing context in which that doesn't just suck.
Here it depends on what if anything has already been established about dear old Dad. If either in the player's character history or the GM's notes (we all know how much you love those! :) ) Dad's been established as a peaceful stay-at-home guy, then suddenly turning him to a serial killer is going to take some real serious justification to not come off as anything but badly done. But if Dad's been left as a blank slate - the PC talks about 'dear old Dad' all the time but neither she nor the GM ever define what dear old Dad's all about - then making him a serial killer is in play, the same as would be making him a simple farmer or the deposed King of Anaqara.

I assume it was planned, as it had all the hallmarks of ye olde raileroade.
You (and thus we) will likely never know now, but I'd have been curious to see what the GM had in mind going forward with that one.

Lanefan
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
So you would have no trouble with an Eberron game where the gods came down and talked to their clerics, issuing orders?
Not [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION], but as an Eberron fan, I admit I'd be curious as to see how someone would run the game with activist deities like the Realms.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Because no matter how hard I try, the meta-knowledge I-as-player have will inevitably creep into my first-person roleplaying of my character.

Rare indeed would be the person for whom it wouldn't. Rare enough, I posit, to maybe not exist at all.
True, but meta-knowledge almost invariably exists. Players may know the GM. The players may know the setting.

At some tables this might be true, but in the grander scheme I'd say that it's the GM's job to be the most knowledgeable person at the table with regards to the setting (particularly if it's a homebrew!!!).
I disagree. But if the player of a cleric whose primary contribution to the setting is a deity and a dwarf clan is the most knowledgeable person of the GM's setting, then something is probably wrong with the GM. ;)

This is why I was raising the point about having to answer to two GMs, one of whom is also a co-player of mine at this hypothetical table.
And I still think that you are engaging in gross hyperbole.

So you would have no trouble with an Eberron game where the gods came down and talked to their clerics, issuing orders?
That's a setting issue and not a cleric class issue that stems from any falsely imagined "deviations" to the cleric class. I do not have to be playing a cleric to find that an issue in Eberron. The cleric, however, is not changing; it plays the same.

The 3e cleric description admits that the campaign presence of deities vary, that temples/churches/cults may be the primary motivations for cleric adventures, and that clerics are not even necessarily serving deities but rather philosophies or alignment. But if we believe that flavor text ist über alles, then we must regard Forgotten Realms as an exception and rules-break from D&D clerics since the 3e PHB flavor text for clerics establishes Pelor as the norm for humans.

But arguing that somehow Eberron creates a rules exception for clerics or changes the class due to the nature of the setting seems antithetical to the nature of D&D and its lifelong embrace of homebrew settings. It reeks of OneTrueWayism when it comes to the cleric. It's a narrow reading of the D&D cleric class that conveniently ignores the wide berth that D&D permits for clerics, divine absence/presence, and the relationship between clerics and their deity. If Eberron is an "exception," there are so many "exceptions" that it is practically a coequal norm. There are so many settings out there, official or 3pp, and I never once had anyone make the bogus claim that the setting somehow changed the cleric class or created an exception just because the setting did something so basic as define how deities exist and express themselves in the setting.
 

Hussar

Legend
It changes the god/cleric relationship. In 1e, 2e, and 3e, you were intended to meet and perhaps even fight gods and avatars. Gods also provided spells and could withdraw them if they so chose. In 5e most adventuring clerics go because their god told them to. Now, the class does mentions some non-cleric priests that have no communion with a god, but those aren't true clerics. In 5e you know your god exists, you know his will, and you get direction from that god or else you couldn't go adventuring at his command.



What is says is that in 1e, 2e, 3e and 5e gods made their wills known directly to their clerics as a matter of course. Eberron changed that by removing gods from direct communication.

Now, that is flat out wrong.

In 2e, gods didn't even have stats. You met a god, you died, end of story. They were unkillable.

Also, in 2e and 3e, you didn't need to have a god to be a cleric. Heck, there's a poster here who has made it a bit of a life's mission to point out this fact repeatedly when discussing gods in 5e.

Also, even in 1e, it wasn't necessarily your god directly interacting with you to grant you spells. It could certainly come from an agent. And, it doesn't mean that there is any actual interaction - just that the spells came directly from that god. But, since the character never actually meets/talks/interacts with that god, from the character's perspective, it doesn't matter.

The only point where it really matters is if you are planar traveling, which could restrict clerics from regaining (not casting, just regaining) certain spells.
 
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Nagol

Unimportant
Now, that is flat out wrong.

In 2e, gods didn't even have stats. You met a god, you died, end of story. They were unkillable.

Also, in 2e and 3e, you didn't need to have a god to be a cleric. Heck, there's a poster here who has made it a bit of a life's mission to point out this fact repeatedly when discussing gods in 5e.

Also, even in 1e, it wasn't necessarily your god directly interacting with you to grant you spells. It could certainly come from an agent. And, it doesn't mean that there is any actual interaction - just that the spells came directly from that god. But, since the character never actually meets/talks/interacts with that god, from the character's perspective, it doesn't matter.

The only point where it really matters is if you are planar traveling, which could restrict clerics from regaining (not casting, just regaining) certain spells.

I agree with you. Especially about 1e. The first couple of spell levels don't require any form of agent. Only the last few levels come from the deity - so 6th and 7th level for a greater god.

Although Deities and Demigods provided stats for gods, there was never any expectation that the gods would generally be interacted with let alone a common campaign element. The only published case I can recall where there is strong possibility of meeting a god (Shrine of the Kuo-toa), it will unlikely to be friendly (or survivable).
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Now, that is flat out wrong.

In 2e, gods didn't even have stats. You met a god, you died, end of story. They were unkillable.

Also, in 2e and 3e, you didn't need to have a god to be a cleric. Heck, there's a poster here who has made it a bit of a life's mission to point out this fact repeatedly when discussing gods in 5e.

Also, even in 1e, it wasn't necessarily your god directly interacting with you to grant you spells. It could certainly come from an agent. And, it doesn't mean that there is any actual interaction - just that the spells came directly from that god. But, since the character never actually meets/talks/interacts with that god, from the character's perspective, it doesn't matter.

The only point where it really matters is if you are planar traveling, which could restrict clerics from regaining (not casting, just regaining) certain spells.

I'm not sure what part of "and avatars" you didn't understand. I can quote you 2e avatar stats for your players to meet if you like.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I'm not sure what part of "and avatars" you didn't understand. I can quote you 2e avatar stats for your players to meet if you like.
Are you confusing "options" for different styles of play with "default assumptions"? Also, isn't Faith and Avatars just about Forgotten Realms?
 

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