D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

[Maxperson]

That's a setting issue and not a cleric class issue that stems from any falsely imagined "deviations" to the cleric class. I do not have to be playing a cleric to find that an issue in Eberron. The cleric, however, is not changing; it plays the same.

You made the claim that Eberron did not alter the cleric class. The cleric class includes gods that are up close and personal. If those aren't allowed in Eberron, then it did change the cleric class.

The 3e cleric description admits that the campaign presence of deities vary, that temples/churches/cults may be the primary motivations for cleric adventures, and that clerics are not even necessarily serving deities but rather philosophies or alignment. But if we believe that flavor text ist über alles, then we must regard Forgotten Realms as an exception and rules-break from D&D clerics since the 3e PHB flavor text for clerics establishes Pelor as the norm for humans.

It does not say the campaign presence of deities may vary. It says that individual clerics may have varying experiences, such as some being clerics of ideals or causes That's very different. Of course, that's just the baseline and individual settings will alter the classes like Eberron does.

But arguing that somehow Eberron creates a rules exception for clerics or changes the class due to the nature of the setting seems antithetical to the nature of D&D and its lifelong embrace of homebrew settings.

Seriously?!? My saying that a setting changes the class is saying that it's wrong for settings to change classes? I didn't make a judgment call about whether Eberron was good or bad for altering the class. I simply noted that it did change the class. My opinion is that changing things is just fine and dandy, and I do it a lot.

It reeks of OneTrueWayism when it comes to the cleric.

At worst it's one true RAWism. I haven't so much as implied that there's only one way to play the class. Change it however you like. I altered the crap out of 3e paladins to the point where each god has virtually a different paladin class. You won't find me pretending that my alterations are RAW, though.

 

[Maxperson]

Are you confusing "options" for different styles of play with "default assumptions"? Also, isn't Faith and Avatars just about Forgotten Realms?

I'm not talking about faiths and avatars.

 

[pemerton]

Perhaps I wasn't clear or I'm misunderstanding. One of the examples in your post, was the concept of stalwart defender of worthy folk which is essentially most good-doing adventurers. By protecting and hiding the teacher (a criminal and werewolf) from the authorities he becomes the sucker according to your post and the character concept is blown away.

But was the PC in your example conceived of and played as a defender of a worthy mentor?

 

[pemerton]

Wait... stalwart defender of worthy folk.

When did "character concept " get morphed into never being wrong?

The clash between meta-declaration and character ability to carry it off is one of the things that drives us away from those approaches.

If the GM decides that dear dad or whomever - the person or people the players' backstory framed as worthy folk - are in fact serial killers, than how was the character meant to carry it off? What did the player fail to do?

If your concept needs to include "never is fooled into protecting bad guys" then you need to build that capability for your character in the setting and play that thru in game

What action declaration or player-side resource is mean to prevent unilateral GM decisions about the backstory element?

 

[pemerton]

The idea that Eberron changes the rules for the 3E cleric class is just bizarre. A 3E cleric didn't even have to serve a god!

 

[Maxperson]

The idea that Eberron changes the rules for the 3E cleric class is just bizarre. A 3E cleric didn't even have to serve a god!

But the vast majority did, and those gods were close and personal. If Eberron doesn't match that, it doesn't match the 3e cleric class as written. That's fine. I already understand that Eberron changed the cleric class for that setting. A class is more than just the mechanics.

 

[TwoSix]

But the vast majority did, and those gods were close and personal. If Eberron doesn't match that, it doesn't match the 3e cleric class as written. That's fine. I already understand that Eberron changed the cleric class for that setting. A class is more than just the mechanics.

It really seems like you're saying here that "the fluff" is actually a rule. If that's your belief, I'm confident you're in a pronounced minority in feeling that way, even among the group of players who like to hew closely to PHB defaults.

 

[SkidAce]

Are you confusing "options" for different styles of play with "default assumptions"? Also, isn't Faith and Avatars just about Forgotten Realms?

Legends and Lore had avatar stats for all the common pantheons.

 

[pemerton]

But the vast majority did

How do you know - did you poll them?

3E allows clerics who don't serve gods. Eberron has clerics whose service to gods is much closer to the 3E PHB's adherence to a philosophy. That's not a change - it's a manner of implementation.

 

[GameOgre]

Currently I'm wrestling with playing in a game with a new DM who is having growing pain issues about playing favorites. He is tying to be a good DM but falling victim to showing favoritism in huge ways.

His girlfriend and best friend ALWAYS gain powerful magic items and special abilities far above everyone else. Starting in Horde of the dragon Queen with magic Draconic slaying whip that works on ANYTHING draconic at range (30 feet) and close up, Starting with a artifact warlock book of secrets, getting infected with Lycanthropy and gaining all of the werewolf benefits and none of the drawbacks.
While others are told +1 is too powerful. NPC's always react well to those two characters no matter what there CHA score and other party members with a 20 cha told"your a ass,nobody cares what you say".

All this while managing to run a very fun and interesting game, doing many other things very well!

We talked to him about it and he just doesn't see it and gets all defensive so eventually yeah, we will bail on the game. No game is much better than a bad game BUT...it's a real shame, as he has the makings of a great DM.